www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications

Teal Terror would be a good name for a comic book villain...or a wrestler.
I don't see any way for the Ruthenians to evangelise since they have been bested on the one hand by the Orthodox and on the other by Tridentine (loyal) Romans...let's not talk about the Evangelicals. Maybe there would be an appeal to fallen away Catholics; there are plenty of them.
From my moderate conservative Latin rite friends, I thought Cardinals Pell and Burke were O.K. That's a Latin thang, though.

Yeah, a great name for a bad guy. Funny, except the response of the parishes to it wasn't all that funny. I had to watch two of my very good friends throw their hands up in disgust and head out the doors for the Orthodox parish. Lord knows how many other parishes experienced the same thing. Sad.

And from what I garner in private talks, all to satisfy the whining of a bunch of feminist nuns who despise words such as "mankind" in the prayers of our Liturgy.

I don't take issue with them calling it a demotion (at least I don't think I do) but I don't get why such a big deal is being made of this. Isn't it natural that Pope Francis would appoint whom he want to the position?

Actually, that "ex-Orthodox monk" should have a look at how the Roman Catholic church annuls marriages in North America - long-time marriages with children. I know a Catholic who just got an annulment of his marriage where he had two children.

That poor ex-Orthodox monk has absolutely no idea how the contemporary Latin Church flouts ancient church teaching on marriage etc.

As for contraception - yes, the Latin Church condemns it. But what tiny percentage of Latin Catholics follows it? Does it make it more moral if lip service is asserted above practice?

I'm asking, not telling . . .

Or it could just be my old prejudice against idealistic converts kicking in again . . .

Alex

Dear Charles,

It would appear that I've seriously misjudged you!

Alex

I wonder how many of Fr Z's readers will see those ten words and say "See? That shows that we're right and the Orthodox are wrong." (or words to that effect)?

I don't see how it is "Latinist propaganda" since it's an ex-Orthodox Christian who wrote it.

All I am doing is bringing it to your attention.

Will Archbishop Cyril Vasil’, S.J., be labeled a "latinist" for his contribution to the upcoming book? His chapter is titled, "Separation, Divorce, Dissolution of the Bond, and Remarriage: Theological and Practical Approaches of the Orthodox Churches."

The blurb on the book states:


Looks like it will be a good read. It's now reported that Pope Francis is aware of it.


Just go back to the link, scroll down the page, and read the comments.

DMD,

You're not calling Cardinals Pell and Burke vipers, are you? Please speak of our hierarchs with respect.

Isn't economy all about building up the oikos (house) of God, used as medicine and not as thrice daily meals?

It's all about scheduling, Alex. The Ukrainian parish has a younger and more energetic priest - who is also in better health - and tends to schedule holy day liturgies and such that fit my work schedule. I can't go anywhere but the Latin parish where I work on Sunday mornings. God doesn't mind, I am sure, and it all works out somehow. :-)

+++ If indeed the Melkites and Ukrainian Churches are growing in numbers it is because of immigration which is/was allowed by the State Dept because of persecution/wars. Whether one wants to admit it or not, our Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church is an American Church based on East European tradition. I will gladly take on any challenge to this statement.

Not challenging your right to post this ^^ advice, but if you produce a reason or reasons for doing so you'd probably get more people to follow said advice (not counting those people who feel the need to read something just because it's on the Internet ).

P.S. For whatever it's worth, I wouldn't ascribe venom to Cardinals Pell and Burke.

While it is certainly right to respect and treat with dignity the Princes of the Church, perhaps there is a lingering memory of one Bishop Ireland still hanging around behind the scenes.

Not necessarily: sometimes it is out in the open.

P.S.

To be fair, I've heard far worse comments directed at the Orthodox by Catholic apologists.

Those who know me realize that my rhetorical use of "venom" was not a literal implication that the Cardinals are in any way "vipers." Rhetorical excess for sure, but not my personal opinion of them.

I do firmly believe that those opposed to any revisions to current Church of Rome practices relating to communion, divorce and remarriage (Cardinals Burke and Pell at the fore) will use the fullest of their considerable skills in the use of scholastic logic to defend the status quo and, since the long standing teachings of the Christian east are being cited by Cardinal Kasper and others as a framework to support such revisions, that the traditionalist faction will attempt to undermine and discredit the eastern position.

An interesting, but lengthy analysis may be found in "chiesaexpressonline" here:

Two references are noteworthy, from the Orthodox perspective. The first makes reference to the always erudite Pope Emeritus (and respector of the east):

" An impressive example of such argumentation is a lengthy article by John Corbett O.P. and seven collaborators as published in the Summer 2014 issue of "Nova et Vetera": “Recent Proposals for the Pastoral Care of the Divorced and Remarried”.

I find the scholarship of this article impressive in its reach and exactness. But it seems to me to typify the recall by Ratzinger of his seminary theology: “The crystal-clear logic seemed to me to be too closed in on itself, too impersonal and ready-made". Across the areas of sacramental theology, selected Church history, and magisterial documents, the authors are impressive in mounting arguments that are syllogistically tight, but less sure in terms of soundness. […]

Although it seems a harsh thing to say, it is as though Corbett and his collaborators have never sat in the confessional. […] In the confessional the heartbreaking stories of marriage failure largely do not focus on “uncleanness” of one kind or another. "

The second quotes Pope Francis: ".... (from) ....the 17 August 2014 address in Korea of Pope Francis to the Bishops of Asia:

"Then too, there is a [another] temptation: that of the apparent security to be found in hiding behind easy answers, ready formulas, rules and regulations. Jesus clashed with people who would hide behind laws, regulations and easy answers... He called them hypocrites. Faith by nature is not self-absorbed; it 'goes out'. It seeks understanding; it gives rise to testimony; it generates mission. [/b]In this sense, faith enables us to be both fearless and unassuming in our witness of hope and love. Saint Peter tells us that we should be ever ready to respond to all who ask the reason for the hope within us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15). Our identity as Christians is ultimately seen in our quiet efforts to worship God alone, to love one another, to serve one another, and to show by our example not only what we believe, but also what we hope for, and the One in whom we put our trust (cf. 2 Tim 1:12)". […]

The fact remains that it is such closed-system perspectives that were challenged in a spearhead way when early in his consistory address Cardinal Kasper said:

"It is not enough to consider the problem only from the point of view and from the perspective of the Church as a sacramental institution. We need a paradigm change and we must… consider the situation also from the perspective of those who are suffering and asking for help"." http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350864?eng=y


That, Charlie Brown, is what "ekonomia" is all about. The highlighted words of Pope Francis cited above explain why we Orthodox possess this understanding in as clear and consise a manner as i have seen any Orthodox apologist present.

So, it seems to me that the next months will be interesting to watch and challenging to many who are under the omophorion of the Church of Rome.

(And I am interested in the essay of Archbishop Cyril on the matter as he is an interesting and eriudite man in a difficult job.)