www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Can someone belong 2 BOTH: Roman Catholic Tradition & Orthodoxy?

Thank you Bob! I do take the reporting of the press with a 'grain of salt' - however, as I am not a theologian, it is difficult for me to 'assess' where all this is indeed going. . . This does not take away the fact that I do pray for the unity of the Church as ONE Church. . .

In terms of the causes of the Schism I am aware of them - ...and I do know how to read... my religious tradition has not caused me to be blind, deaf and dumb.

Best,

Christine

Recently, I was asked to deliver some remarks at a monastery where my religion students had gone for a one-day visit.

Somehow, I got onto the topic of St Elias and how all those priests of Jezebel were killed after the contest re: the sacrifice.

I then paused and added, "So the prophet Elias could never be a patron saint of ecumenism."

The students didn't get it, but the nuns couldn't stop laughing.

Happy to bring some more sunshine into their lives . . .



Alex

In this modern day and age, can you really say Roman Catholic tradition? What does that even mean anymore?

This touches on a very similar question I have. I was Roman Catholic for nearly 25 years, converting in 1985-6. After almost 10 agonizing years trying to find the most 'conservative' or 'traditional' parish, we finally left and entered the environs of the SSPX, believing we would find authentic Roman Catholicism there. Perhaps outwardly, but we left rather disgusted after just a couple of years. then we bounced back-and forth between the Vatican II "we don't do that anymore" folks, and the traditionalists (even sedevacantists)for an excruciatingly long time. Also spent 4 years in Steubenville with those folks.
Scarred and spiritually confused, we found the strength to change... and became Orthodox. Over time, it became apparent that they too exhibited many if not most of the variety of liberal to traditional venues, with modernists embracing Vatican II's ecumenism and tradtionalists ever splintering into mutually anathematizing "true", "genuine" groups in rebellion. Not too much difference on either side of the Schism (i.e., the mutual anathematizing of Constantinople and Rome for whatever plethora of geo-religious-political 'stuff' (words fail at this point).
So, AFTER 43 years since a most wonderful and utterly life-changing conversion (outside the realm of ecclesiastical chaos) but in the normal course of my little 'life's' events, I NEARLY gave up on finding the Church... NOT CHRIST... but the Church, mindful that the two are truly and ultimately inseparable.
We are now worshiping with the Melkite Greek-Catholics, with some trepidation and many, many questions. And finally, my question:
It would seem to me that in the horrific aftermath of the misappropriations and misapplications (being generous in my terms)of Vatican II... why wasn't there a huge influx of 'traditionalist' Catholics from the Roman Rite into the Byzantine, Eastern catholic churches? If there was one, please let me know where to find more info. To ponder this question DEEPLY, AND ITS RAMIFICATIONS, seems VITAL for someone at our particular level of experience (and I'm sure we are not at all unique in this).
Any and all constructive input, with charity uppermost, would be most appreciated.

Glory to God for All Things!

Ivanov

Well there was an influx of traditionalists when I was heavily involved with the Byzantine Rite in the 1980s. I do not know about before then. I do think they were of a milder variety in that liturgy in English was fine, and they were blissfully ignorant of the specifics of the Byzantine Rite not to be bothered that it was not Eastern to a tee. However, some were admittedly on "for the ride" and would go to a Tridentine parish the moment the Pope allowed it. I do not know how many actually did this. I know that most who attend my old parish are from the Latin rite and are rather conservative, but still prefer the Byz. rite even though now there are Trid. Masses allowed in the area.
Really, for a long time Latin riters saved the Byz. Rite...but for that same amount of time the fullness of the Eastern tradition was often downplayed. I think diehard Latin Trads either died out, or the next generation clings to the Trad. subcultures, of which the are several flavors, alive and well in cyberspace and in reality to a degree.
You may not know this, but I am Greek Catholic, but I attend Orthodox services. I am aware of the modernism and Trad. problem there as well. I attend a ROCOR parish. What I like about them is that they dowplay academics (which can be a playground for modernists and archaeologising trads) and focus more on asceticism and prayer life...and I have found their approach services much "warmer" than the other local Orthodox churches. Since their "rehabilitation" they have also tried to act as a leaven to other Orthodox. Fr. Seraphim Rose noted that the correctness disease and splitting off into purist churches only compounds the problem, and it would have done everybody more good if the tradition minded stay attached to their canonical churches and provide a good influence from within. The are examples of this in other Orthodox jurisdictions, i.e. there are Greek priests much more tradition minded than what I remembered in the 1980s, as well as a number of St. Herman monastery mission parishes which have joined fairly mainstream jurisdictions.
I do not know if such a solution would apply to the Catholic Communion, since it is so large and diverse. I know a lot of Catholics who attend Novus Ordo parishes who strive to be orthodox and faithful to the magisterium, and are probably blessed not to have heightened expectations of liturgy, who
have reverence enough, however, that when they see something "wrong" at Mass grin and bear it. I really think the West lost its sense of liturgy way, way before Vatican II so I do not think there can be the same recovery of liturgical sense as one would find with the Byzantine Catholics. Eg. the fullness of theology is not expressed in the Latin liturgy (new or old), there is a vertical relation between the clergy and laity...these existed for centuries, like a broken bone poorly set.
You, Ivanov, took the right road and focused on Christ That is what we should be doing regardless of our jurisdictional affiliation and it would keep us out of all kinds of party or jurisdictional trouble, mend our schisms and heal our wounds.
Somerset Maughm said a bore is someone who leaves out no details. Sorry if I offered too many details.