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Dec 29th, 2019
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The "union of Brest" doesnt mean a thing. Try posting some thing straight from the Vatican or one of its councils which is where Catholic Theology comes from. Try a enycyclical from one of the Popes.
If Rome didnt beleive that the Spirit Proceeds from the Father and Son, they wouldnt have added it in the first place.
In Christ
Nektarios
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Dear Incognitus,
Actually, you are wrong about Old Believers and kneeling, Big Guy!
They don't ever KNEEL but make full prostrations.
They actually dissuade people from ever kneeling in prayer and regard kneeling as a Westernization that should be expunged from Orthodoxy.
But they insist on doing full prostrations to the floor after each time the prayer to the Mother of God is recited "It is truly meet . ." or at Pascha "Shine, shine . . ."
They will not do full prostrations on Sundays or throughout the Paschal season, (bows to the waist only) EXCEPT when it comes to that particular prayer.
Alex
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Dear Nektarios, Excuse me, Friend, but the Union of Brest DOES mean a thing here for Eastern Catholics. And it is frequently discussed by Orthodox theologians and polemicists - who obviously do consider it to mean something. You really should take our dear and esteemed Administrator's admonitions to behave on this forum to heart, you know. If I were on an Orthodox forum, how long do you think I'd last if I made statements as you are making? I'll tell you how long - not very long at all. So be nice to us, or we won't be nice to you. O.K. . . . Daniel?  (See how annoying that is?) Alex
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Dear Nektarios,
Actually, St Mark of Ephesus himself at the Council of Florence did not argue for the Latins to do anything but remove, unilaterally, the Filioque from the Creed as a minimal condition for unity.
He believed that God would heal the matter in time.
Also, the term "From the Father through the Son" is something that both sides accepted, as Fr. John Meyendorff wrote, and unity could have been had by affirming this phrase.
Alex
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"From the Father through the Son" would not nor could not be questioned at all, especially considering its Trinitarian source, and its espousal by the glorious Father of the Cappadocians himself, St. Basil the Great.
He mentions this formula repeatedly in his "On the Holy Spirit", which itself became the patristic bastion of theology on the Holy Spirit. Perhaps Nektarios/Daniel would do well to read a bit more.
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Dear Diak,
And I believe St Basil said that in his time there were two forms of the Trinitarian Doxology - the one we know and this one:
"Glory to the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit" which St Basil used when he deemed it liturgically appropriate to underline the Economic Trinity.
Alex
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Sancte Filioque, ora pro nobis!
Incognitus
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St. Mark did more then ask them to remove it. He believed it to be heresy as well. He was very anti-latin.
In Christ
Nektarios
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Incognitus,
Actually, you are wrong about Old Believers and kneeling, Big Guy!
They don't ever KNEEL but make full prostrations.
They actually dissuade people from ever kneeling in prayer and regard kneeling as a Westernization that should be expunged from Orthodoxy. Alex, According to one source: In the mid 17th century Ivan Neronov and then Avvakum served as archpriest in the Kazansky Cathedral. They were known for their piety, and refused to accept the church reforms initiated by Patriarch Nikon, which caused the schism of the Orthodox Church into Nikonians and Old Believers. Nikon sent these priests his instruction demanding that the signing of the cross with two fingers should be replaced by the three-fingered signing, and that kneeling should give way to bowing from the waist. Both Neronov and Awakum were sent from the cathedral into prison. (emphasis added) and, in a 1966 letter by a leader of a Molokan (Milk-Drinker or Jumper) community in California, describing a church service, to a professor at Concordia Seminary who was updating a work on religious bodies in the US: Our regular church service begins with everyone sitting, and, while the congregation is assembling, we sing psalms and other passages from the scriptures and from the Book of Spirit and Life. In between the songs our elders read and preach from the scriptures and deliver homilies.
After about an hour of this, at a signal from the presbyter, the benches are removed and the prayer service begins. This consists in singing an appropriate song while everyone approaches by turns and places an offering on the table. Following this the presbyter leads in prayers while the congregation is all kneeling.
About four prayers are recited when everyone rises. At this time we perform the ceremony of the holy kiss which we call the communion. Everyone beginning with the assistant presbyter, kisses the presbyter and stands alongside of him followed by others who kiss the presbyter and others standing in the line. This is followed by everyone until the whole congregation, old and young, male and female, participates in the holy kiss. This is done while the chorus is singing an appropriate song such as the last five verses of Romans 8, 35: "who shall separate us from the love of Christ?" etc.
After this ceremony another prayer is recited with all kneeling following which the chorus sings several joyful spiritual songs. But we consider that the service has not reached its fullness unless there is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit which activates and moves at least some of the members in joyful spiritual jumping.
The service is concluded with another prayer by the presbyter, this time all standing. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Dear Neil, That is very nice, but the Molokans are NOT Old Believers - a common error, but the Old Believers are often offended by it! I've read the Old Believer regulatory texts in the original Russian - they are quite against the practice of kneeling and they don't do it, period. They do make prostrations according to their strict rules. There are several Old Believer sites, unfortunately in Russian, including the one on the Semeyskie Old Believers, that deal with this and that attack the practice of kneeling during prayer - a "Latin tradition." It could also be that English translators sometimes, as I've noticed, render "Prostrations" as "Kneeling" since it one must kneel down to make the prostration. I believe that the English translator who gave the text you quote made this crucial error since the actual instruction of Patriarch Nikon was about changing prostrations with bows from the waist in the Russian Church. The Old Believers, for example, made 17 prostrations for the prayer of St Ephrem during Lent and at other times, and Nikon's reforms were seen as a "heretical lightening" of the tradition. But the idea of REMAINING in the kneeling position for prayer is verboten for the Old Believer tradition. (Gotcha! ) Alex
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Dear Alex - forgive the delay; I've been overwhelmed for the past several days and I only noticed your posting just now.
As to substance: it is impossible to make a prostration without kneeling (unless one has some unusual mechanical assistance).
As to the Molokans, maybe I've missed my vocation - I like milk. But do they approve of whipped cream?
Incognitus
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