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Dear Friends,

How did it come to be that we commemorate the Pope four times during the Liturgy? (The Melkites do it once, however.)

We shorten and remove antiphons, but don't we think that a four-fold commemoration of the Pope sort of sticks out like a sore thumb, liturgically speaking?

Alex

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Three sore thumbs, to be exact!

Are you, Ukies, trying to be more popish than the Pope? :p

We, Latins, do it only ONCE during the entire Mass! And we are supposed to be the papalists here! biggrin

Amado

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Dear Amado,

Well, if you put it that way, I feel some sort of perverse satisfaction in knowing we're more papal than you guys! smile

Alex

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We do it because we know he needs the prayers.... Look what he has to deal with in his own rite biggrin

With the problems he is facing, I would up it to about 10 times.

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Dear John:

Having come home by way of the Latin Church, I expected a little bit of Romanish in you! :p

And I didn't at all appreciate a Ruthenian consorting with a Ukie, you know! wink

Amado

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Check over at the desert, most people there think they are canonical lawyers, I'm sure they'll give you some answer.

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Originally posted by Massasauga:
Check over at the desert,
the desert? confused


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
How did it come to be that we commemorate the Pope four times during the Liturgy?
Alex,

Yuhannon can correct me, but I think even the Maronites only do so once biggrin .

Methinks you are only one commemoration ahead of your Ruthenian brothers, however :p

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Alex- Don't you know the First Byzantine Liturgical Principle: "If something is worth doing it is worth doing over and over"?
-Daniel Daniel Daniel

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Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[b]How did it come to be that we commemorate the Pope four times during the Liturgy?
Alex,

Yuhannon can correct me, but I think even the Maronites only do so once biggrin .

Methinks you are only one commemoration ahead of your Ruthenian brothers, however :p

Many years,

Neil [/b]
four times? maybe so that certain Latins will get it through their thick skulls that we ECs are Catholics, even if the Maronites are the only ones doing it. biggrin biggrin biggrin
Much Love,
Jonn

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Originally posted by Amadeus:
Dear John:

Having come home by way of the Latin Church, I expected a little bit of Romanish in you! :p

And I didn't at all appreciate a Ruthenian consorting with a Ukie, you know! wink

Amado
Ohhhhh My!!! Is it showing.... Maybe I will have to enter intense therapy.

wink

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Perhaps when they got rid of the sponge at Zamosc a couple of extra commemorations were suggested as a consolation! :p

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actually it's like the well-known principle that before you say a prayer you must always say a prayer - and after you say a prayer you must say a prayer in thanksgiving.

Incognitus

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Originally posted by Coalesco:
Perhaps when they got rid of the sponge at Zamosc a couple of extra commemorations were suggested as a consolation! :p
[sarcasm]
No, no, no! In the true Uniate tradition when one takes something away one never replaces it or adds something to the service! This would defeat the purpose of taking away in the first place! :p
[/sarcasm]

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

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Please note I have not included the text of all footnotes. In general they highlight specific examples form various sources. Also, the footnotes are longer than the text proper!

Quote
Ukrainain Catholics: Four Translations of the Divine Liturgy, Some Early Translations
Serge Keleher
Logos: A journal of Eastern Christian Studies
Vol. 39 (1998) Nos. 2-3, pp. 275-280

2. The multiplication of commemoration of hierarchs
As can be seen in a 14th century manuscript,[32] in the 1639 Kiev Leitourgiarion and in several other editions until 1712, except those books which derive from the �missal� of Cyprian Zhokhovsky published in 1692,[33] the authentic Kievan tradition prescribes that one and only one hierarch should be commemorated at any given moment. The deacon or priest should commemorate the local bishop. The local bishop should commemorate the Metropolitan of Kiev. The Metropolitan of Kiev should commemorate the Patriarch.[34] Otherwise the Patriarch should be commemorated only in Stauropegial churches, and in the case only the Patriarch should be commemorated. That remains the practice to this day in the Local Churches of the Greek tradition, with occasional modifications.[35]

After the 1720 Synod of Zamost�, it became the rule in the Catholic Metropolitanate of Kiev that the Pope�s name be commemorated at every celebration of the Divine Liturgy, which in turn meant that the Metropolitan had also to be commemorated (after the Pope and before the local Bishop) at every celebration of the Divine Liturgy. This did not mean, however, that the entire list had to be recited at each commemoration. It seems that at first the whole list was recited during the Great Entrance; it was then extended to the Anaphora[36] and later to the Ektene.[37] {Litany of Fervent Supplication, KO63AP} Most liturgicons printed in Galicia before the Soviet occupation do not prescribe the commemoration of the Pope at the Great Synapte[38] {Great Litany / Litany of Peace, KO63AP} (one also finds printed texts of the service which indicate that there was considerable variety in this matter in the eparchies of Mukachevo,[39] Pre�ov[40] and Hajd�dorog[41]).

However, the Rome 1940 edition and other books in that series call for the commemorations of the Pope and the Metropolitan each time any hierarch is to be mentioned [at the Divine Liturgy this means at the Preparation, the Great Synapte, the Ektene, the Great Entrance, the Anaphora, and the Polychronion]. This innovation conforms to the use of the Moscow Patriarchate, which also requires that at every commemoration the priest or deacon must mention the Patriarch, the Metropolitan or Exarch, and the local hierarch.[42] But this innovation does not conform either to authentic Kievan tradition or to twentieth-century Greek editions of the liturgical books published by the Holy See;[43] these Greek books mention the commemoration of the Pope only at the Anaphora.[44]

With the recognition of the Ukrainian Catholic Major Archbishop,[45] and the growth of the Patriarchal movement among Ukrainian Catholics, the list of names at the commemorations of the hierarchy has become longer: the Pope, the Patriarch or Major Archbishop,[46] the Metropolitan, and the local bishop.[47] It has also become customary to name all the auxiliary bishops. Clergy serving in Ukraine sometimes mention as many as six hierarchs, by name, at each commemoration of the hierarchy. The 1940 edition also requires the commemoration of monastic and paramonastic superiors immediately after the hierarchs at the Preparation,[48] the Ektene,[49] and the Great Entrance.[50] By any standard, this multiplication of names is an overdevelopment. A return to the original practice would be appropriate.

=====

[32] Panteleimon Kovaliv, Prayer Book, a monument of the XIV Century (New York: Scientific Theological Institute of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of U.S.A., 1960), manuscript pp. 9 recto, 14 recto, and 26 verso.

[33] Modeled closely on the Missale Romanum, Zhokhovsky�s 1692 missal was to be of great influence; the 1905 L�viv edition is a direct descendent of 1692.

[34] After 1596 {Union of Brest, KO63AP} the Catholic Metropolitan of Kiev commemorated the Pope instead of the Patriarch of Constantinople.
If one is interested in the title ascribed to the Pope in the Divine Liturgy one can look here .

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

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