www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ireland legalizes Gay Marriage

So, it seems that the Irish Catholic Church has spectacularly collapsed. Over 62% of Irish voted Yes, and 42 of 43 constituencies sided with legalization.

What now for Irish Catholicism- how does it recover? It has totally lost its credibility in the eyes of the Irish, apparently.

Unbelievable--Ireland was one of the most pious Catholic countries! I am shocked.

Why can't people just 'live and let live'. Why is legitimizing homosexuality suddenly the most important thing in the world?

Now we are also hearing more and more about transexualism.

Where will this sexually obsessed madness that is permeating western cultures end?

The Catholic Church utterly collapsed there- I think it will need to restore traditional Faith and Liturgy to revive itself.

The next thing that they are going to legalize is NAMBLA. Just a matter of time.

Truly sad.

Even more sad that there were priests who were publicly supporting it.

Scandalous!

Truly scandalous. Even the so called "practicing Catholic" prime minister supported it.

.

Alice:

It's part of the secular campaign to marginalize the moral voice of Christianity in all situations. The next step is to make it a hate crime if one teaches children that marriage is only between one man and one woman. The question was asked at the recent Supreme Court arguments in favor of legalizing "gay marriage" across the board. When asked by one of the justices, the government attorney replied that this would be an issue at that stage if "gay marriage" were to be the law of the land. It has also been suggested that any religious institution that taught the traditional definition of marriage could lose its tax exempt status. And you know that the power to tax is the power to destroy--so there would be churches closed and church schools shuttered.

The goal is not tolerance; it's forced acceptance.

Bob

BenjaminRH:

There is no way to "revive" something that is moribund. It will take far more than "traditional faith and liturgy" to change Ireland. It will take another St. Patrick to begin anew the fundamental work of evangelization.

Besides, this is part of "traditional faith." It's interesting that the Archbishop of Dublin thinks, according to a statement he made to the media, that the Church must find a new message and a new voice to reach the young--whatever that might mean.

A further point to be made is what this means for us in other parts of the West.

Bob

Does anyone else see the pattern I see here here?

The Church has a scandal--Ireland, the abuse of children in its institutions, recently uncovered by the government, and the almost negligible steps taken against the religious orders and others responsible. The Church loses its moral authority in the eyes of believers because of it and the believers begin to decide every question without the traditional teaching of the Church. Contraception, abortion, now marriage.

I don't think it helped when Pope Francis seemed to signal that his new approach will not emphasize traditional teaching in the area of homosexuality: "Who am I to judge"? Apparently no one told him that that is his function with ordination. I'm not saying that a condemnation attitude should be the norm, but not to tell the truth about what has been revealed to us is not a merciful attitude though it may seem so in the secular mind.

It will be interesting to see what happens in other countries with Catholic populations. There seems to be a parallel developing in the United States.

Bob

Am I the only one who finds this pair of sentences amusing?

Aye, judgement and discernment are part of the obligation of any clerical order which includes the office of preaching. The one presenting a homily or sermon must discern truth and speak forthrightly against error in all its guises.

The obligation to defend truth against all adversaries is so much the greater for those who are called to the office of oversight which is the special ministry of the episcopacy. Those then elevated to even greater realms of administration have no greater task than preserving the deposit of the faith inherited from the saints.

Those who would neglect the ministry of the Keys are unworthy of Kingdom.

When I say 'live and let live', I mean 'do whatever makes you happy romantically' and leave politics, imposing agendas, prosletyzing, changing laws, redefining institutions, etc. out of it.

I did not intend to amuse anyone. I am most certainly not amused by western society today.

Alice, Moderator

The faith collapses when the shepherds don't do their jobs. The abuse crisis in Ireland weakened the faith, to be sure. The bishops didn't do very much to either prevent or to counteract it. Secularism seems to be the new world religion. It is everywhere and appears to be winning.

Actually the largest group of people outside Catholics in the United States are those who describe themselves as "nones." It's the answer to the question of "what is your religious affiliation?" And the answer is "none." They've edged Protestants Evangelicals in the past few years.

Interestingly, this group is being populated by young people of all backgrounds, so it would seem that everyone is missing the boat in passing along the Faith.

Bob

The media here, rightly or wrongly, tend to emphasize that the clergy sex scandals and the way the bishops in Ireland handled the matter helped weaken the Church's credibility on moral issues altogether.

Lay Catholics here tend to be quite agnostic and/or pro- same sex marriage, especially in the Catholic province of Quebec.

The "post-Catholic" phenomenon, however, is not a recent one. When on retreat at a Trappist monastery near Montreal, the monks told us that children in Catholic schools give priests and nuns the "silent treatment" when asked about religion - not even a "yes" or "no" to anything.

This needs to be studied in-depth and not by theologians, but by social scientists.

In my Church, our theologians really believe they don't need the insights or methods of the social sciences to address what are really religious sociological issues. That is a crying shame.

Alex

I often think Pope Francis has a tendency to merely say what people want to hear. I thought the same at first when hearing of his not emphasizing the traditional teaching on homosexuality...Now I have second thoughts. Perhaps things are now at such an impasse that it is poor strategy to emphasize Church teachings merely as dos and don'ts on questions of morality. Not only is the "love" that demand it speak its name a monotonously ubiquitous subject that just wont go away, we are living in a time when even the good works of the Church are not recognized as good by society. I think we need to rediscover what is good about the Good News and who Christ is. I don't want to sound like a buttercup-twirling idealist, but perhaps morals and social justice will fall into place more cogently once the focus is put on Christ. This goes not just for Catholics and Orthodox, but for all who profess Christ. Although those of us of an Eastern bent have a great advantage of an extremely vivid picture of Christ through the feasts and the liturgy.

Dear Mark,

Pope Francis seems to be getting his message across in a way that people, who would not otherwise care to hear the, as you say, "don't do this, do that's" of morality, at least will hear.

For me, the beatification on Sunday of the martyred Archbishop Oscar Romero of San Salvador is a case in point.

Both the metaphysical materialism of capitalism and the "historical" materialism of Marxism must be rejected by the followers of Christ. Blessed Oscar Romero strongly condemned both as Christ is our Life and the Way and the Truth.

The Left is always upset and even angered to hear of the Church taking the "preferential option for the poor" and yet this is what we are called to do and this is what Pope Francis, as a Christian leader, is calling on all of us to do (as did, of course, Bl. Oscar Romero).

Christianity cannot afford to emphasize the vertical nature of our relationship with God to the exclusion of the important horizontal aspect.

Our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ linked our salvation to both of these dimensions of our life in Him.

Also, "fashionable" Christianity is what is at the root of much of the evils we see in Western society today, nominal Christians who may or may not attend Church.

Re-evangelization needs to begin within our Churches first to get them restarted as reflections of the Divine Light that is to illumine us and the entire world.

Alex

Matthew 25: 31-46.
But I think it is a bit much to insist on the elaborate structure of Catholic social teaching in a climate which prevails today. It is predicated on a fairly prosperous and fairly Catholic society, which would be hard to find.

Dear Bob,

In actual fact, when Pope Francis said that, ("Who am I to judge?"), it was completely taken out of context by journalists. He was referring to a specific case of a priest which they had raised to him during their questioning.

When our Canadian turn-coat, Michael Coren, became Anglican because he said he couldn't accept Catholic teaching on homosexuality, he was asked, in an interview, about the Pope's statement above.

Coren, correctly, responded that the statement was taken out of context and was not, by any means, a blanket anything.

We should not fall into the trap of the liberal journalists by repeating their falsification of the pope's statement . . .

Alex

Alex:

All the more reason to be very careful about what one says to a journalist of any stripe because we know that they take what they need to make 30-second sound bites to support their own predetermined agenda. Another caveat is to be careful around everyone with a smart phone in hand because one never knows what is being recorded and uploaded to the Internet.

It's one thing for His Holiness as a Cardinal in Buenos Aires to mix with the people in town on the bus or wherever, but it's quite another to be Pope and think the international media is the same sort of warm, friendly group.

In my professional association we solved this problem decades ago by agreeing that no one of us would give a statement to the media with the exception of one of our members who was trained originally as a journalist. We refer all questions or requests for statements to him and he speaks for the group.

Bob

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Dear desertman,

I'm in hospital so my response isn't all what I would like it to be.

Suffice it to say that you do have an axe to grind against the pope which I believe is entirely unwarranted.

This pope is a very spiritual person and what I find most upsetting in your comments is your contention, without substantiation, that he is somehow presenting the church as a political organization etc. etc.

He continually brings the situation of Christians being slaughtered to the world's attention - it is the world, and the news media that we have in North America (and I hope we don't limit our information sources to these pitiable agencies) which don't want to spent much time on what the pope says and is saying about these issues.

His courage, as but one example, to recognize the Armenian Genocide of 1915 and to declare an Armenian theologian as a doctor of the Catholic Church . . . You can't be serious. This is all ground-shaking and in terms of ecumenism - he goes beyond commissions and ritualistic gestures.

That there are left-wingers in the Catholic Church - absolutely. There always were, especially in the last two hundred years. And so? Does he excommunicate them all? I don't know

In any event, I'm excited about this pope and I know that so very many acquaintances of mine, who normally wouldn't be praying or attending church, are doing so now only because of the pope.

His style may not be to the taste of radical traditionalists - but Catholic traditionalism is already a failed movement within the Church at best, or, at worst, outside the church in the several de facto schismatic movements they have started.

Alex

Alex,

I saw deertman's post before he removed it. I thought it well composed. I saw concern, but I did not see him grinding any axes.

At any rate, I expect most of us can - at least - agree that the Vatican is not doing a great job at convincing bishops, priests and the laity to speak Truth.

John

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Dear Friend,

I don't/can't pretend to know their motivations.

But they attend Mass, pray the Rosary and even want to join the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima.

Can you get any more "orthodox Catholic" than that, I askk you?

I think not . . .

Cheers, and all the best!

Alex

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All practices of the Latin Church which may be fine for them, but how much should they be of interest to the East?

I don't know how to read this pope, but being spiritual doesn't equate with being even a middling-good leader or administrator. I have had the suspicion since he was elected that "what you see is what you get." Maybe we are getting the leadership we deserve and history will have to be the judge of that. However, getting past 'how I feel' and looking at more fact-based evidence would be a good start in evaluating not only the papacy, but also the world around us. I have often thought that today history is often changed into hysteria. It seems to me we live in "the age of Oprah" and have lost the ability to discern and discriminate in the good sense of the word.

Dear desertman,

I would assume it was in the influence of the Holy Spirit!

My Armenian friends/acquaintances are saying they would love it if their Church was in full communion with Rome and they love Pope Francis.

If you like, I could try to dissuade them from such sentiments and tell them some negative things about the Pope . . .

Maybe not.

Alex

Dear Charles,

Praying the Rosary and the devotion to Our Lady of Fatima are very much part of the spiritual life of many Ukrainian Catholics and also Russian Catholics.

Russian Catholics have a Church in California in honour of Our Lady of Fatima - perhaps you could look them up and write to them to show them the error of their ways?

Not only are they into the Rosary but also the Scapular which they say reflects the Mantle of Protection of the Theotokos ( as it does for those Latin Catholics). You better raise the alarm with them about that too!

Since those things are the exclusive property of the West and the "East" shouldn't be messing around with them, perhaps this Forum could devise a montioring system to ensure that the Jesus Prayer and Akathists etc. are off limits to Latins, Anglicans and Lutherans et alia? They belong to the East and the West shouldn't be destroying their heritage with such.

You can always be counted on to ensure ritual purity, Charles! Where would we be without you?!

I really hope the Administrator and the Moderators here take note of your points and get right on this matter . . .

Alex

Dear Administrator,

What is truth, someone once asked . . .

Is it truth in our particular version, or someone else's or ... what?

The Truth of Christ never changes. But the method of its communication from age to age and among different cultures and peoples does.

Don't know how many here would agree (probably not many), but Pope Francis' method of communication of the Gospel is inspiring many priests, bishops and laity.

And he is telling us to both preach the truth and live the truth.

He reinforces that every night at the Vatican when, on his orders, a small army of bishops and assistants go out into the streets of Rome with food packages for the homeless. These are given out with a smile and the words, "A gift from the Pope."

Now that is the Truth of Christ, sir. (And perhaps "axe to grind" was a bit harsh - but we Catholics tend to be very protective, even to the point of being a bit jumpy, of our Popes, you know ).

Desertman is a great Christian and we both share a love of the spiritual desert. A lonely hospital room is just like that except there is water available . . .

Alex

Dear desertman,

Certainly, all these are symptoms of "Modernism."

But as I learned in the hospital, not all symptoms point to the same issue.

On that we will disagree. But my interest is in jumping on people in my environment who show an interest in becoming Catholic and . . . making sure they BECOME CATHOLIC!

And if they want to become Catholic because of the influence of Pope Francis - then who am I to judge? And who am I to accuse them of wanting something good for a "bad reason?"

From now on, I'm going to recommend membership in the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima JUST BECAUSE of what Charles said!

Not everyone likes Fatima, maiinly the Eastern Catholics I know . . .

Alex

Dear Charles,

One more point - it "seems" to you that we live in the age of Oprah?

Have you turned on the TV lately?

(Being in hospital, I have this terrible thing about needling other people . . .)

Alex

Well, Alex, while you are there perhaps they can remove your needler. I wonder if Mrs. Alex would concur with that. LOL.

BTW, why are you in the hospital? Nothing serious, I hope.

Oprah is no longer on TV, but the damage continues, I'm afraid. She promoted a touchy-feely approach to all things, even creating, it seems to me, her own personal religion. That religion accepts all errors equally and seems little in line with conventional Christianity. Unfortunately, the secularism she promoted didn't end when her TV series ended. Millions she influenced are still promoting her ideas.

Alex,

I pray that you're better soon, and I also pray that you're right and I'm wrong.

Pray for me too, that God might help me to humble myself and stop judging things that are beyond my knowledge or control, as well as to stop judging Christ's representatives on earth. They're the successors of the apostles. It's not my place to speak the way I did.

Lord have mercy on me a sinner.

UPDATE: I am once again removing my comments on this thread. My conscience won't allow them to stand.

Dear Charles,

My needle stays in for the next six weeks. An admitted mistake made by the specialist back in May is the cause. She had me discharged from the iv without thoroughly checking (via MRI) that the bone infection had completely cleared.

It's very fair to say that Oprah created her own religion/church based on the "feel good" premises of modern culture. At the same time, one could argue the same exists in the super-churches of TV evangelism with the emphasis on their idea of "Truth" and their interpretation of the Gospel.

Alex

Dear desertman,

Please don't be hard on yourself sir! You and I both the right to express views, opinions and to discuss them!

That's what this Forum is about!

If I knew you were going to feel this way, I would have kept my big mouth shut!

If anything, you breathe new life into the Forum format. You are not afraid to speak your mind and heart. You are also not afraid to witness to Christ and affirm your faith commitment!

If I and we all could be more like you, we would be more Christ-like and we would have a different Church and a different world.

I need to go to bed to sleep off these drugs being pumped into me. Knowing you have prayed for me will help me sleep very well! God bless!

Alex

Yep, that prosperity gospel surely does fill up the pews.