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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Actually, prior to the Schism of 1054, divorce and sacramental remarriage was allowed by the Churches of the East. The Emperor St Constantine VI was married four times this way . . .

Alex
"St." ? ..."married four times"? Please, more details.

Constantine VI was married and remarried. He is commemorated in the Greek calendar among the twenty Emperors and Empresses of Byzantium/New Rome (without a public cultus, but he is still there and is referred to as "Saint").

There are plenty of online resources that one may consult regarding him.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Actually, prior to the Schism of 1054, divorce and sacramental remarriage was allowed by the Churches of the East. The Emperor St Constantine VI was married four times this way . . .

Alex
"St." ? ..."married four times"? Please, more details.

Constantine VI was married and remarried.
That does not add up to "married four times."


Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
He is commemorated in the Greek calendar among the twenty Emperors and Empresses of Byzantium/New Rome (without a public cultus, but he is still there and is referred to as "Saint").

There are plenty of online resources that one may consult regarding him.

Alex
The only ones I found did not support your assertions, that's why I asked, as I do again: What online sources support your statements?

----------------------------------------------

Some online sources I found.

orthodoxwiki.org/Constantine_VI [orthodoxwiki.org] in particular:
Quote
The marriage between Constantine and Maria was not a smooth one, and since Maria had not produced a male heir Constantine forced her to become a nun in 793. This allowed Constantine to marry his mistress, Theodote, who was a lady-in-waiting for Irene. The marriage produced a son, Leo, who died in 797. This marriage, whose legality was seriously questioned, was very unpopular with the Church, although the patriarch Tarasius, ignored it. Through this marriage and ongoing palace intrigues, Constantine lost support of both the ruling Orthodox parties and the iconoclastic opposition.


Wikipedia_Constantine_VI [en.wikipedia.org] in particular:
Quote
Once in control of the state, Constantine proved incapable of sound governance. His army was defeated by the Arabs, and Constantine himself suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Kardam of Bulgaria in the 792 Battle of Marcellae.[1] A movement developed in favor of his uncle, the Caesar Nikephoros. Constantine had his uncle's eyes put out and the tongues of his father's four other half-brothers cut off. His former Armenian supporters revolted after he had blinded their general Alexios Mosele. He crushed this revolt with extreme cruelty in 793.[1]

He then divorced his wife Maria of Amnia, who had failed to provide him with a male heir, and married his mistress Theodote, an unpopular and canonically illegal act which sparked off the so-called "Moechian Controversy". Although the Patriarch Tarasios did not publicly speak against it, he also refused to officiate the marriage. Popular disapproval was expressed by Theodote's uncle, Plato of Sakkoudion, who even broke communion with Tarasios for his passive stance. Plato's intransigence led to his own imprisonment, while his monastic supporters were persecuted and exiled to Thessalonica. The "Moechian Controversy" cost Constantine what popularity he had left, especially in the church establishment, which Irene took care to vocally support against her own son.


Dumbarton Oaks [doaks.org] in particular:
Quote
In the great tradition of imperial marriage drama, Constantine divorced his first wife and married his mistress in 795. Initially declared uncanonical, as no emperor had divorced his wife before, Patriarch Tarasios relented only when Constantine threatened to revive Iconoclasm. Patriarchal recognition caused many churchmen to break with Tarasios, thereby initiating the Moechian Controversy, whose effects would continue into the next decade.

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The online resources you bring forward are far from exhaustive.

There are other ways of researching things without relying solely on internet resources, to be sure. I withdraw that post.

I apologise, but I shouldn't even be here to discuss this or anything else right now. Sorry, over and out.

Alex

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Alex wasn't it Leo VI who married 4 times?

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Dear Anthony,

Yes, it was! I am reading a study on St Constantine the Great and somehow I messed up the name.

Getting old - another reason to stop posting here! smile

God bless!

Alex

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Not an example of how Byzantine theology should develop nor does it pertain to divorce:

Quote
Leo VI caused a major scandal with his numerous marriages which failed to produce a legitimate heir to the throne.[32] His first wife Theophano, whom Basil had forced him to marry on account of her family connections to the Martinakioi, and whom Leo hated,[33] died in 897, and Leo married Zoe Zaoutzaina, the daughter of his adviser Stylianos Zaoutzes, though she died as well in 899.[34] Upon this marriage Leo created the title of basileopatōr ("father of the emperor") for his father-in-law.[35]

After Zoe's death a third marriage was technically illegal,[36] but he married again, only to have his third wife Eudokia Baïana die in 901.[28] Instead of marrying a fourth time, which would have been an even greater sin than a third marriage (according to the Patriarch Nicholas Mystikos)[37] Leo took as mistress Zoe Karbonopsina.[38] He married her only after she had given birth to a son in 905,[36] but incurred the opposition of the patriarch. Replacing Nicholas Mystikos with Euthymios,[16] Leo got his marriage recognized by the church (albeit with a long penance attached, and with an assurance that Leo would outlaw all future fourth marriages).
...

The future Constantine VII was the illegitimate son born before Leo's uncanonical fourth marriage to Zoe Karbonopsina.
Leo_VI_the_Wise [en.wikipedia.org]


And:

Quote
After replacing Nicholas as patriarch with Euthymius I Syncellus, Leo's fourth marriage was recognized by the patriarch. This action opened a conflict within the Church. Leo aggravated the situation greatly by appealing to the Bishop of Rome to obtain papal consent, thus providing an opening for papal intervention into affairs of the Eastern Roman Empire.
Leo_VI [orthodoxwiki.org]

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But the Orthodox Church, then and now, has and does allow for up to three marriage "annulments" or "divorces."

Ware and others write about this - Leo the Wise was a notorious example (although one could argue how "wise" he was entering into more marriages after failing to learn his lesson after the first one . . . smile ).

The Ukrainian Orthodox developed a saying in this regard for someone who, in his life, was sacramentally married three times: "The first wife is from God, the second from the people and the third - from the devil."

The Melkite Patriarch, in this instance, appears to be more "papal" than the pope himself on this score.

This was one of the first things we studied in my ill-fated diaconal courses.

Alex

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Well, that's only one side of the coin. StuartK could lay more on the matter; and I'm reading through Meyendorff's an Orthodox perspective on marriage. Stuart did post the marriage rite, or some parts of it, on Facebook.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
But the Orthodox Church, then and now, has and does allow for up to three marriage "annulments" or "divorces."
Insofar as the then is theology done just to accommodate the Basileus it should be suspect.


Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
The Ukrainian Orthodox developed a saying in this regard for someone who, in his life, was sacramentally married three times: "The first wife is from God, the second from the people and the third - from the devil."
They should have just stuck with Ephesians 5:32.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
The Melkite Patriarch, in this instance, appears to be more "papal" than the pope himself on this score.
No, just being orthodox.

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The Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Tradition should have been able to keep their respective practices regarding marriage intact.

Again, reading Meyendorff's Orthodox perspective on Marriage is a good starting point.

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Originally Posted by Lester S
The Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Tradition should have been able to keep their respective practices regarding marriage intact.
I'd say it's a tradition at best. And a tradition/custom must yield to sound theology.

Are the words attributed to the Melkite Patriarch sound theology, a true expression of a legitimate Eastern viewpoint? I question the "we do it and have ALWAYS done it" justification, especially if ALWAYS started in the 8th century to mollify a ruler.

Originally Posted by Lester S
Again, reading Meyendorff's Orthodox perspective on Marriage is a good starting point.
I agree, "a good starting point."

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Well, what is so sound about the Catholic Church in North America issuing so many decrees of "annulment" as it continues to do?

Like the one my cousin received - after twenty years of marriage and two children?

Never mind about the Orthodox praxis in this regard. (And you make it sound as if in all of history, the Eastern Church "bent" the rules to "mollify" one emperor - are you kidding?) What about the current Catholic praxis? How does IT reflect your concern for orthodoxy and Gospel-inspired teaching?

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Well, what is so sound about the Catholic Church in North America issuing so many decrees of "annulment" as it continues to do?

Like the one my cousin received - after twenty years of marriage and two children?
Do you know better than your cousin or the marriage tribunal? Children and time don't de facto prove the integrity of the marriage bond, do they?

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Never mind about the Orthodox praxis in this regard. (And you make it sound as if in all of history, the Eastern Church "bent" the rules to "mollify" one emperor - are you kidding?) What about the current Catholic praxis?
We should mind both; praxis and specific situations can readily be critiqued. What is the Orthodox praxis of annulment (more properly a decree of nullity)?

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
How does IT reflect your concern for orthodoxy and Gospel-inspired teaching?
The fundamental issue is what is the underlying theology on which the praxis is based. The Catholic praxis and I presume Orthodox also are witnessed by scripture in, for instance:

----------------------------

"For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, (Mal 2:16 RSV)

But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity (πορνείας), makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Mat 5:32 RSV)

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mat 16:19 RSV)

And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." (Mat 19:3-9 RSV)

And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to put her away." 5 But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, `God made them male and female.' 7 `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. 11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." (Mar 10:2-12 RSV)

This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; (Eph 5:32 RSV)

-------------------------

Ephesians 5:32 prompts me to ask: Can Christ and the church divorce?


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Originally Posted by ajk
The fundamental issue is what is the underlying theology on which the praxis is based. The Catholic praxis and I presume Orthodox also are witnessed by scripture in, for instance:

----------------------------

"For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, (Mal 2:16 RSV)

But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity (πορνείας), makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Mat 5:32 RSV)

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mat 16:19 RSV)

And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." (Mat 19:3-9 RSV)

And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to put her away." 5 But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, `God made them male and female.' 7 `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. 11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." (Mar 10:2-12 RSV)

This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; (Eph 5:32 RSV)

-------------------------

Ephesians 5:32 prompts me to ask: Can Christ and the church divorce?

Good proof texts. The problem is, the Church does dissolve marriages and has done so since ancient times. Whether one calls it "divorce" or plays semantic/ legal games about "annulments" and "validity" is immaterial. It's all fine and good to quote Christ's words against the Pharisees, but what could be more pharisaical then inventing a mountain of rules and jargon just to create a loophole to avoid calling a spade a spade?

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Is the marriage tribunal now infallible too? I know the cousin too well . . .

And now the Catholic church has to scramble to affirm that the civil marriage is legitimate to avoid calling the children of that marriage "illegitimate."

How do your copious scriptural quotes contribute to the discussion on the PRAXIS of annulment/divorce.

You are willing to acknowledge annulment but not divorce. Is this not a matter of semantics whereby thousands of Catholic have received annulments - much to Rome's chagrin?

So what really does constitute grounds for annulment? Psychological reasons based on a psychologist's report that says the marriage has broken down?

Also, as for adultery - there is also consideration given to the "adultery" that occurs when one or both partners give more attention to their careers or other "things" rather than to their marriage which leads to marriage breakdown.

At least the Orthodox Church is realistic here.

Also, the Eastern Churches not only allow, but actively support "hieratic divorce" where one or both partners seek to dissolve the marriage bond so that they might enter the monastic state - by way of parentheses.

If you are going to simply pronounce "from above" and say only the marriage tribunal knows for sure - that is not a discussion.

Alex

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