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The gathering of nearly a million youths from across the world under the banner: "We have come to worship Him (Mt 2,2)" ought to be cause for enormous joy rather than an occasion to pick at over-emotionalism or excess exuberance that can occur at such spectacular events.

Having said that, I think that - to paraphrase the administrator from the just war thread - "[we] need to accept that one can be either support [this gathering] or oppose it and (either way) remain a good Catholic". Identifying Fuchs, described as a praticing Catholic, to be an example of "those who do not know Christ" - strikes me as more than a bit much.

djs,

Perhaps you are correct and my comments were �a bit much�. I shall think about it and thank you for pointing out what might be hypocrisy on my part.

I admit that I am a sinful man. As much as I want to give the benefit of the doubt to Mr. Fuch (and the others in the linked stories), I find Mr. Fuch�s comparison as not just �a bit much� but unacceptable. Can someone who believes that a gathering of one million followers of Jesus Christ is comparable to a Nazi party congress have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? I suppose I should have allowed an �out� for Mr. Fuch by offering that he probably spoke without thinking and regretted the comparison (especially since it will live forever in the memory of the internet).

I withdraw my earlier remarks and will state only that Mr. Fuch�s (and the others in the linked articles) comparison was incorrect and unfortunate. I thank djs for pointing out my hypocrisy and lack of charity.

Admin

My impression is that Fuchs makes a strong expression against emotionalism and "feverish and frenetic" feelings substituting for clear thinking about Jesus. Others posting here may have similar thoughts. But probably only a German like Fuchs has acute dread about it.

Many Germans that I know are very cautious - perhaps obsessively so - about group rallies, especially when it is tinged by nationalist pride, in the German Pope. (AFAIK, still no national anthems before sporting events in Germany.) They, of course, have the experience of what monstrous things they can do when group-think overwhelms clear thinking. And they live with that evil always before them. It is probably fair to suggest that he Fuchs is overly concerned. (It is a professional occupation for him.)

And while a comparison to rallies of the third reich might just seem terrible to us, it is, in a sense, a German statement of psalm 51. Our reactions to events are probably strongly linked to our own sins, which naturally loom the largest before us.

There was this positive. Traditional Catholic youth of Juventutem were invited to WYD for the first time:

Juventutem [telegraph.co.uk]

It also seems that they were well received.

Shawn said:

Well said, I guess I've been a bit pessimistic.

Dear Friends,

I viewed WYD 2005, the Vigil et al. and I was shocked by what I saw!

I was shocked that the faith of the Latin Church's youth is so strong, that they would spend so much time in one place focused on Christ and the celebration of their joyful hope in Him.

I was shocked to see such devotion to the Most Holy Mother of God where an actual AKATHIST to her was sung (or parts of it) in German - such openness to the Eastern Churches simply doesn't become these Latins!

I was shocked at the way in which Our Lady was honoured by having her icon "Salus Populi Romae" placed at the foot of Her Son's Cross.

I was shocked at the EXTREME devotion and reverence shown to the Most Holy Eucharist carried in procession and adored on the altar - so much so, I might add, that I think we EC's should look into this as well (hey, who threw that? ).

I shuddered at the way the jugglers worked on the stage (NOT the Altar, please!).

When I was young, and I think I can remember that far back, we did things like that. It was meant to show our joy.

Did not David dance for joy? Did he not do so naked and was upbraided for this by his wife, the daughter of Saul?

(FYI, NOBODY danced naked at WYD 2005!)

And the papal sermon was EXCELLENT!

The choir was beautiful and much better than what we had at WYD 2002.

As for the altar girls, I know we respect the principle of democracy here, so I know you won't mind if I take a moment to crap all over those who didn't like the altar girls . . .

Oh, all right I won't . . .

My grandmother was an altar girl who served for her father, a GC priest. She later served as a cantor and an altar servers for her husband, also a GC priest, especially during the wars where most Cantors became soldiers.

I think it is rather disgusting for us to run down a small liturgical role for girls when our Church praises the role of Presbyteras so highly.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves and you should get a life. Perhaps you might think of converting (yet again) to a church that shares your all-male patriarchalist views.

Perhaps you've already converted to a few churches over the weekend already.

Have a nice day!

Alex
(A Canadian sociologist who respectfully disagrees with the above-quoted German sociologist)

World Youth Day is a project of the entire Catholic Church, although spearheaded by the Latin Church.

Each particular Church in the Catholic Communion should take pride in sending her own delegation to the biennial meeting of our youth!

While it is not surprising that a few might nitpick on some of the scheduled events, in this instance on the closing Mass, many of us look at the over-all value of WYD.

For one, many appreciate the evangelical (and catechetical) thrust of a majority of the intervening events and the ecumenical outreach WYD has come to signify for other Christians and non-Christians alike!

For Protestants:

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=59459

For Orthodox:

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=59460

For Jews:

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=59439

Thank you!

Amado

"You guys should be ashamed of yourselves and you should get a life. Perhaps you might think of converting (yet again) to a church that shares your all-male patriarchalist views."

Actually Alex, some people may indeed think of it that way, but there are more fundamental questions in the matter than something as simple as that. It can't be written off that simply.

First some context. I head up the Altar Servers guild at my local Cathedral. We have both men and women, boys and girls. What I share comes from both personal experience, and has also been echoed by others, including some Roman documents of recent.

The service of altar server has of course been traditionally united to the priesthood as a "garden of vocations" from whence that might spring. However, it has been noted that boys have a tendency to shy away from serving at the altar when there are a lot of girls or women altar serving -- which often happens, probably at the encouragement of the parent(s). Second, girls are typically less passive at this age than the boys and the girls will often try to direct the boys and tell them what to do -- something the boys do not like, eventually recoil into the background and ultimately disappear.

Personally, I do not feel that girls are somehow not suited to the altar, as though somehow "unclean", but my main concern is, first, with what I mention above since we want to encourage boys to vocations to the priesthood. My second concern pertains to those who use this, or are animated by it somehow, for ideological reasons in their pursuit of the ordination of women and see it as a stepping stone, or at very least as a political statement. I have found such individuals at my own parish who have wanted a campaign for altar girls and who also are relatively open about their hope for a female priesthood. In that sense, there is a second prudential question about whether we are in the right climate to allow this innovation at this time.

Dear Shawn,

First of all, I was being a bit flippant when I made those comments . . . I know you may find that hard to believe, but there you have it!

Secondly, if the altar-servers guilds were a "garden" of vocations to the priesthood - that would be good. But hardly. The only altar-server I knew who was thinking about the priesthood was . . . me. I could be wrong. But it is hardly the fact that altar-servers are the "first stop" on the way to the Priesthood.

It was the Germans themselves who chose the altar-servers.

I remember when Pope John Paul II came here in 1984, we had women communion-servers - even after he had said something negative to that effect.

But the pope wasn't going to press the matter with the Canadian bishops.

Also, if there is nervousness about women wanting to get into the priesthood (we don't really have that at all in the Eastern Churches), then . . . perhaps you are right.

But somehow it seems to me that pious girls who are altar-servers are less likely to challenge Church law and tradition and try and become priests!

My grandmother was as traditional an Eastern Catholic lady as you could want - no desire to become a priest with her!

And I know that many Presbyteras in Ukraine fulfill the function not only of altar-server, but Cantor for their husbands, especially at funerals - no desire to become priests there either.

The last Presbytera I met who is a Cantor for her husband walked, as I understand, for up to ten miles behind the funeral train as it went to the cemetery.

She was very pious, had a beautiful, sonorous voice (which I'm sure would put to shame most of the Cantors here!) and was very beautiful.

She would look positively ugly in a mitre . . .

Again, I came away from viewing the WYD 2005 with nothing but inspiration, renewed piety and a better opinion of the Latin Church!

Alex

Dear Amado,

My uncle, an agnostic Jew, was so inspired by WYD 2002 that he wanted to attend the Vigil!

(A Korean war veteran, although they say there are no 'atheists in fox-holes,' he was with the US Air Force)

Believe me, that truly WAS a miracle!

Alex

Just a general comment here to put the "emotionalism" in perspective. The Latin Church of the 30's, 40's and 50's was a Church of intellectualism. That is, one memorized answers to catechetical questions and that made one a "good Cathnolic." This is, in part, a reaction to the Scholasticism that formed so much of the expression of the Latin Church's theology.

The hard part for Latin Catholics was to take thier belief (what was in their head) and make it faith (what they lived out, what was in their heart). What WYD attempts to do is support the idea that we live our faith and then it is not simply a "dead belief" but a living, vibrant action of God at work that can change and transform the world, one person at a time. It is, in effect, theosis in action.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Dear Fr. Deacon Ed:

That's one beautiful way of putting the raison d'etre of the WYD!

It is complementing and implementing Pope John Paul II's call for a "new evangelization" at the turn of the millenium by "bridging the gap between FAITH and everyday life!"

Amado

Dear Father Deacon Edward,

Yes, and the thing is that the Germans aren't that emotional to begin with!

It makes them feel insecure and uncontrolled!

One priest told me about how disciplined and even dictatorial his German priest friends were.

"And that, I think, is why the revolt against the papacy happened in Germany!" he said.

"They didn't want the Roman pope because they already had too many popes of their own . . ."

Did you like the WYD 2005, Father Deacon?

Alex

Dear All,
I have read over this topic with great interest and a little concern. I takle it that I am the first to contribute to this thread who actually had the privilege of attending the WYD so my insight might be of some use.

I only just got back to Portugal today and had to come straight to work. I havn't slept a decent night in over two weeks, nor showered in two days, so my judgment might be slightly clouded, however, as far as I can recall:

1) the juglers were present, if I recall correctly, during the vigil and not during the mass, and, as Alex stated, on the stage and not on the altar.

2) The reconciliation tent was so full, that occassionally thhey had to seel the entrance for security reasons.

3) The same goes for the adoration tent, although I actually had the opportunity to get into that one. The reverence inside was astounding. On Sunday morning, before the mass, it was so full that they closed it, and people started kneeling outside the tent in prayer.

4) The sermon was indeed very good.

5) H. H. is not as mediatic as John Paul The Great, this dissapointed some people who were expecting a little more inter action, but the chants of "Benedetto" rang loud all the same.

6) The germans are known for their clockwork organisation. Unfortunately it usually relies on clockwork obedience to rules by those it is meant to serve. One million youths from all over the world, who did not always queue up in an orderly fashion, or, automatically stand behind the white line caused complete chaos in Cologne.

7) I have been told that the cathedral is very lovely, I wouldn't know, I never got a chance to go in, the crowds were so huge.

8) One million people travelled to Cologne to adore him. One million youths. And still we ask for miracles?

9) At least in the group of 80 that I was in, although we were happy to see the Pope, it was very clear that the high point of Saturday was not his appearance for the vigil, but the Eucharist we attended in the morning in our parishes before travelling to Marienfield.

10) As some of you know, I am a bit of a football/soccer freak, and I like big events. I was at Euro 96, Euro 2000, World Cup 2002 in Korea, Euro 2004 in Portugal. Few events move as many people as these big sports events. It was my first WYD, but I can tell you from experience, that concentrating one million young men and women in the same place, for one week, and not seeing a single incident of violence or disagreement, is yet another miracle.

11) During these days I had the privilege of meeting, for the first time, a Syro-Malabarese priest, and also an Egyptian Coptic seminarian. There were countless Lebanese, Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Albanian, and even many Russian flags. I have little doubt that the global and truly universal catholic church was present and answered the call to go and worship him.

12) One million young people showed the pope that we love him not because he is Ratzinger or John Paul, not because he is media-friendly or theologically brilliant, but simple because he is Peter. That is enough for us.
To worry about altar girls and hat jugglers in the face of the miracle that took place over the last week feels about as right as being one of the 5000 and complaining that fish had too many bones.

So much happened over these last two weeks that I would like to share with you, I will try to do so in briefer posts in different topics.
God bless!
Filipe

Hi,

I saw the coverage of the closing mass for WYD and I didn't see any jugglers.

Are you sure this was done during the mass? Or was it part of the vigil service the night before?

That was NOT a mass, and therefore, complains about liturgical abuses are out of place.

I didn't catch the whole vigil service, but what I saw was beautiful and awe-inspiring.

I saw 800,000 young boys and girls expressing their faith in Christ in various ways, some of them very classical, some of them very new and creative.

I saw Eucharistic adoration done with all propert dignity and decor.

I heard excellent music.

(I heard lousy commentary from both EWTN and Vatican Radio, but I was already expecting that)

I saw the Mass of the Roman Catholic Church celebrated (Sunday morning) with all its beauty and dignity. I saw thousands of priests, deacons and lay extraordinary ministers distributing Holy Communion to hundreds of thousands of people.

I saw Peter, confirming his brothers and sisters in faith.

Yes, there were a few kids a little out of focus, it is natural for a crowd that size.

Yes, there were a few kids who were too little too tired to be even awake during the mass, but you have to understand they had spent several days getting there, a week of intense activity, they spent the night (a rather cool one, I understand) on the muddy field doing anything but sleeping.

All of this because they belive in Christ, and they believe the Holy Father has something to say to them, something they want to listen.

What I saw was MAGNIFICENT.

I am sorry you missed it.

Blessed are the pure in heart, they shall see God.

Shalom,
Memo

Alex- Thanks for your comments; a nice balance to all the fault-finders. Personally, most of my fellow altar boys ended up as hoodlums.
Sometimes the folks here, the ones of the "ain't it awful" school of Catholicism, remind me of certain Jews, outraged by you-know-who and His and His disciples' indecorous behaviour!
But then again, not everyone shares our hip sensibilities... :p
-Daniel