www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Questions about Divine Liturgy At OCA Church

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!

Hi again Nicky's Baba!

We have a MP Russian Orthordox parish here where I live. They were founded in the early 1900's and they have a marble ikonostas with the Michael-Angelo Last Supper print on the top.

They did some restoration work on the interior about 10-15 years ago and the congregation went BANANAS when the priest tried to put in a new ikonostas.

Now that things have changed so much in Russia, there was some talk about having some Russian monks come and do something similar to what they did at St.Nicholas in Washington,DC and the congregation wants no parts of it...

As for ringing bells, I went to the funeral of my best friend's mother a couple of years ago at the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parish in Ambridge and they rang bells there during the consecration. I think the even had kneelers but can't remember....

Oh, well, just some info....

mark

It seems many of the MP parishes here in the USA have a Carpatho-Russian foundation. Other than the one in the city (the cathedral) the ones around here at least.

I don't know what the Michelangelo Last Supper looks like, the one I am most used to seeing is the DaVinci one. Do you have any link for the Michelangelo one?

Hi Tony

Sorry, brain freeze, it is the DaVinci Last Supper that is above the Royal Doors, all the talk about marble had me thinking of Michael-Angelo..

Yes, many OCA churches have Ruszyn roots but this parish is Moscow Patriarchate and has remained Moscow Patriarchate even after 1917. The founding families all came from Belarus, from the area around Minsk.

Speaking of "marble" ikonostasi, have you seen the "faux" marble ikonostas that St. John the Baptist in Uniontown has erected? Trust me, it will bring tears to your eyes... or at it brought tears to mine....

mark

Hi all,

No the table is off to the left side of the tetrapod. According to the "Clash of the Titans" there was a parish in WI. I had asked the folks at St. Nick's once if it was and they said no. St. Nick's is a nice Parish. The folks are friendly. One more thing is Liturgy primarily sung by the choir? At this Church the people in the pews recited the Creed,the Our Father & communion prayer nothing else. With the people not responding much it reminds me of the Tridentine Mass. Thats one thing I don't care for. Its like your an observer not a participant.

Nicky's Baba

Yes, Bob, as Tony posited it seems you are describing the tetrapod. This is used for holding the icon of the feast, items for blessings after Liturgy, wheat wine and oil for Litya, etc. This is also where the "dance" takes place for weddings with the procession around the tetrapod, etc.

I think many OCA parishes, especially those originally of Carpatho-Rusyn or former Greek Catholic origin, have a tetrapod but some certainly do not that keep a more Great Russian liturgical observance versus a more Ukrainian or Carpatho-Rusyn observance.

I am not quite sure what to make of this, Tony. Usually a tetrapod is not moved unless it is Great and Holy Friday, etc. on rare occasions.

Are you referring to a Panakyda table here? Usually the panakyda tables I have seen are large and heavy and often not moved but the priest and people move towards the panakhyda table. I would say that panakyda tables are more of a Great Russian accutrement and are often not found in churches of Carpatho-Rusyn or Ukrainian provenance.

I remember making a foray to one of our local OCA parish across town (which still celebrates all Services in Church Slavonic and is on the Julian Calendar) for Vigil and of course, I began singing some of the Gospodi Pomiluis for the responses. A Choir member came down from the loft and said to me in Russian "Don't sing, LISTEN"

Well, this might have been a reflection of my bad singing but then again, in traditionally Russian parish, singing by the Congregation can be limited to the Creed, Otce Nas and sometimes the Litanies. My all-English OCA parish, although we have a great choir, encourages people to learn some Troparia and to sing at least some of the Liturgy. Not everyone in the congregation does. But then again, I don't see this as akin to being an "observer" or like the Tridentine Mass (which i find static) In the Eastern Church, one is always bowing and crossing and lighting candles and that is quite good participation and being in a parish without pews, this really frees up those aspects of Orthodox worship. I don't feel that I have to sing everything to be participating.

Someday, I will return to the Russian Parish without fearing a reprimand

Dear Medved,

Yes but we are talking about MP parishes here not OCA. Remember that the oldest level of people/parishes leaving the Union went to what would become the MP, most later the Metropolia. The MP parishes I am most familiar with (in nearby NJ) have Rusyn roots. One indeed "split" from a BC parish the other I am unclear about but the roots are admitted to be Austro-Hungarian and there are some vestigial CR practices (meaning at variance with Muscovite practices).

Tony

Diak,

I don't cease to be amazed how many different ways people read things! In my best attempt at clarity I wrote to Nicky's Baba "Was the 'table' you are talking about stationary in the front center of the church where a tetrapod would be in a BC parish?" I am obviously contrasting what she is talking about with the tetrapod.

I think Nicky's Baba understood when she replied "No the table is off to the left side of the tetrapod."

Then when I say "I have never seen that anywhere unless it is moved there for a service." The "that" should have been qualified; but since it can't be the tetrapod it must be the panikhida table we have agreed is what she saw.

So, here is a tranlsation of the from Tony-ese into Diak-ese hopefully: "I have not seen a Panikhida table in the center of the church where a tetrapod would normally be in a BC church except when it is moved there for a service."

Since I don't trust my memory on such things as whether a panikhida table may be moved or not I ran it by a co-worker/fellow student who is a PK (priest's kid), the son of a dean of an OCA cathedral, whose opinion and experience I trust. He said it may be moved. Obviously the big Golgotha backdrop and the metal frame with the lamps hanging from it (in traditional Russian usage) could not me moved and even a big heavy table could not.

Tony

Nicky's Baba,

Good gracious! Must have been an interesting day...the Creed and Our Father (in the Divine Liturgy) are usually sung by "Russians."

Tony

Nicky's Baba,

I have no idea what the above means...I thought it might be code for someone but since you address "all" and I think of myself as part of all I tried to figure it out...no luck.

Tony

OK, were you not talking about a Panakyda table initially? At least that is what you said. Next you were talking about the Tetrapod. Somewhere in there we also brought up analoy and other things. Sorry for the confusion.

All churches of the Byzantine tradition, by the way, have a great diversity in usage with these various accutrements such as the tetrapod, Panakhyda tables, various analoy, etc. I enjoy learning from various differences in usages across the churches.

"Tony-ese vs. Diak-ese"? If you want to have a civilized discussion, that's fine, Tony. Put-downs and insinuations aren't really necessary to clarify statements. A simple, "No, what I was referring to" would work just fine. It seems these kind of uncharitable snippets are getting to be par for the course on this Forum.

I think Tony was just trying to be humorous there.

Notice there is no "vs." no versus in my post.

It's hard to read sarcasm on a forum. We have these little things like or to help convey thoughts. Regardless, that statement was not needed nor appreciated nor I think humorous. I would hope as someone studying the sacred sciences in an Orthodox institution one would be perhaps a bit more sensitive and inclined towards patience and charity with others.

Brian, that is wonderful. Keep up the singing! David Drillock has made some wonderfully singeable versions of traditional Russian chant, whether znamenny or obikhod, etc. in use in the OCA. St. Vlad's also has some great teaching CDs now with booklets for learning various chants.

The Antiocian parish by us has the Oktoechos for the Troparia and Kondakia for Sundays in variable chant, i.e. one Sunday is Bulgarian, one is Kyivan, one is Byzantine, etc. and everyone sings for the troparia, not just the cantors.

While in principle I agree with you on the Tridentine comment, especially with regard to a Low Mass where only the priest and one server are in dialogue, if you ever go to a full Solemn High Mass with the Asperges, full choir singing, procession of the clergy into the Church, etc. it really is a marvellous thing. There aren't any pews around the high altar in St. Peter's in Rome, either.