www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Questions about Divine Liturgy At OCA Church

Hi Everyone,

I attended the local OCA Church for Dormition.(WE had no Liturgy). I have questions about the Liturgy.

1.There were only 3 of us and the Choir in the loft but during the Great Entrance a woman knelt down?
2. Do you only sit when the Priest has the Royal doors shut?
3. They rang bells at what would be the consecration. They knelt also.I have never attended on a Sunday so I don't know if they kneel or not on Sunday.
4. The Icons are very Western looking.
5. To me the Icon Screen looks western. Its made of marble and has details you would see in a Roman Church.

Nicky's Baba

What kind of OCA parish? "Regular" OCA, or belonging to one of the ethnic dioceses of the OCA such as Romanian, Albanian or Bulgarian?

The conventions for sitting vary from place to place, the usual posture of prayer is standing. Kneeling during the great entrance apparently was common in some places and at some times (Huculak says it was common among the Ruthenians at one time).

A marble icon screen sounds Greek to me...that is usually where I have seen those but I have seen them elsewhere too...including St. Elias BC Church in Munhall, PA.

"Western" icons are common in many older parishes it seems across the jurisdictional and confessional divide, what made these so different?

What are the details on the icon screen that "you would see in a Roman Church?"

Wow, my experience with the OCA is standing for the whole Liturgy and no pews. Sitting only at Epistle and sermon and when someone older got tired. But the attendance on a weekday is consistent with my experience, usually always less than 10.

Hi Tony,

It's regular but most of the founders originated from Russia,Poland, Ukraine.The Icon screen is "Baroque-ish". Up in the front of the Church there is table with a candle holder on it. It has a crucifix in the center and small statues on each side of it then in front candles. I know that some OC's have pews but it was my understanding that kneeling wasn't the posture in Orthodox Churches. Also that the ringing of the bells at consecration was western.We are being told to go back to our orthodox heritage and I find it interesting that in the BC many people refer to these types of things as latinizations.BTW it is an older Church.I saw a banner with the date 1933.


Nicky's Baba

True, according to Fr. Lawrence Huculak and others kneeling at the Entrance was done in some areas. But while it may have been a common practice at one time it was not apparently ever a universal custom with the Ruthenians.

The common Old Believer practice was to bow twice to the waist at the first two invocations and to the floor for the third, but definitely not kneeling.

Last time I was at a Greek parish they knelt for the Great Entrance but they had pews and kneelers also.

That sounds like a Panikhida table where you light candles for your departed loved ones, that is very Russian. It can be moved for the Panikhida to the center of the church. Does it look anything like this [id23.securedata.net] ? That is the Golgotha. Our Lord crucified with His Mother the Theotokos and St. John, the beloved Disciple at the foot of the Cross.

In my experience most Orthodox parish churches in the USA have pews. Kneeling is not the normal posture but you obviously cannot take your cue from one person in one location. I have only heard bells rung at the "consecration" twice in an Orthodox church, it is not common.

Most people will not deny that various Orthodox churches have suffered latinizations too especially in art.

Usually the Panakhyda tables are along the sides or in the back, not in the front as Nicky's Baba indicated. I would be interested also to know what that is she is describing.

Hi Tony,

Yes it is similiar. The reason I think it is in front is because there is not enough room for it on a side wall. The aisle beeween the wall & pews do not allow for it.When I think of what an Orthodox Church would or should look like, I think of the BC in Homer Glen - Annunciation. It doesn't even have stain glass windows. I was told thats not our tradition either.To see it go to
www.byzantinecatholic.com. [byzantinecatholic.com.]


Nicky's Baba

"It's regular but most of the founders originated from Russia,Poland, Ukraine.The Icon screen is "Baroque-ish".

Maybe they were some of ours who switched to Orthodoxy in the celibacy wars and who either took their temple with them or built what they were used to. Wasn't that common in those days? Don

Nicky's Baba,

Well I am not sure how to reply except to say that not all Orthodox parishes (or people, priests, bishops, etc.) are gonna be perfect. Orthodoxy (like any other Church for that matter) is a living organism and as such picks up things along the way...stained glass windows for instance. Again, I think that isolating a parish as an example is faulty. As much as the Homer Glen BC parish may be a fine example of what a BC church should look like, there are bunches more that don't look like they should.

Shall I send you links to pictures of Orthodox parishes without stained glass, etc? They are out there but they are not all of the parishes either.

Tony

Nicky's Baba,

I did not read your post the same way Diak apparently did. Was the "table" you are talking about stationary in the front center of the church where a tetrapod would be in a BC parish? I have never seen that anywhere unless it is moved there for a service.

tony

Nicky's Baba:

Glory be to Jesus Christ! Glory be to Him forever and ever!!

The OCA parishes that I am familiar with all had a small table in the center of the middle aisle in direct line with the Holy Table. On it would be a cross with a candle on either side and an icon for the Sunday or Feast being celebrated. This icon would be on an angled, raised stand--something like a book stand--and was to be venerated before one took one's place before the start of the Liturgy. It was also venerated on leaving the church and before kissing the hand cross and receiving the antidoron. In two churches the icon was encased in a glass-covered gilded case that had short legs in front and longer ones in the rear to hold the icon up to be venerated.

Is this what you are referring to?

In Christ,

BOB

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Hi Nicky's Baba!

I have some friends that attended Divine Liturgy in a Coptic Orthodox church in Cairo, Egypt. They said the church was filled with colored light.

It seems that the central dome of the church is infused with colored bottles. Most of the members of this parish work as trash and garbage collectors and the scavenged the trash dumps for all the colored bottles and glass they could find. These bottles were then embedded into the wet plaster of the roof when they built the church. The sunlight beating down on the roof and coming thru these shards of glass is quite impressive I'm told.

I guess one man's trash IS another man's treasure...

JMHO...

mark

Dear BOB,

What you refer to is commonly called a tetrapod and is not normatively found in churches of pure Russian usage, it is a Carpatho-Russian and Ukrainian usage (very comon in many OCA parishes but not all by any means). In Russian churches a taller analoy/analogion serves the same purpose but the top is slanted so usually there is a candle stand next to it or behind it.

Tony