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Dear Friends,

Monastery Icons isn't my choice for icons and I understand the controversy and respect it.

But the icons representing Christ and the Theotokos sitting in the lotus position - is that the basis for the "pagan" charge?

If so, we should realize that there are MANY Catholic and Protestant churches in Asia that portray Christ and our Lady sitting in the lotus position.

That is simply good acculturation. We're not used to it and it has no meaning for us. But it has lots of meaning to Asian Christians coming from Buddhism.

In fact, when Catholics were persecuted in Japan and went around incognito, Japanese police would try to root them out by taking crosses, placing them on the ground and then getting suspected Christians to spit on them.

The Catholics got wise, however, and began to draw images of Christ sitting in the lotus position, much like the Buddha, on these Crosses. Christ is the "Enlightener" and so the theme was relevant for them. The spitting on Crosses ceased and a number of these crosses are on display in museums in Japan today.

It is no more "pagan" to depict Christ in the lotus position, which is also the position in which Christians celebrate the Mass in Asia, than to depict Christ in Orthodox Churches as a Byzantine Emperor wearing royal robes or in any other culturally relevant way.

Christianity is very Russian in Russia, Greek in Greece and Asian in Asia.

Russian Orthodox sometimes wear little brass snakes on their chains with their neck crosses - in memory of the brass serpent that Moses raised in the desert.

Is that a pagan tradition too?

As for buying icons, I have a bigger problem with buying them from virulently anti-Catholic online stores and monasteries.

Alex

What is wrong about the icons is that the symbol in the middle of christ chest is supposed to resembol the Hindu sign of Om. thats wrong.
Good point on the lotus position though.

In Christ +
Daniel

No, it is not accurate to say that Christians celebrate the Mass in Asia in the lotus position! You can find a few crackpots to do almost anything. But the Liturgies which are indigenous to Asia (and which go back to sub-Apostolic times) are most definitely not celebrated in any such posture. The Hinduizers are nothing more than a very recent fraud. I'm not about to tell you what "OM" really means, but there is no lack of reference books if you wish to find out! Incognitus

Dear Friends,

Of course, not all Christians in Asia celebrate the LIturgy in the Lotus position.

But there are those who do, including the Catholic Mass - and this has the approval of the Catholic Church.

Unless one considers the Catholic Church a "fraud," then there is no fraud involved.

I participated in such a Mass in the lotus position - I found it uncomfortable, but I put up with it - where a number of elements from Hinduism were also used, including the flowery ring on the ground etc. The nuns involved were from both India and North America. Four of those involved were Christian converts from Buddhism and Hinduism who have dedicated their lives to preaching Christ.

Jesuits here are working on a First Nations Rite that involves smoking the peace-pipe and other traditions.

Remember that the Holy Father also said Mass using some of these traditions when he was in Canada way back when.

As for "Om," ummmm . . .

This word is used extensively in Asian religions and can mean almost anything, depending on who you are talking to.

It is also an almost universal religious sound that can be found in other faiths, including Christian.

When St Jean de Brebeuf came to Huronia, ninety miles north of where I am right now, he could not find a Native word for "God."

So he took their word for their chief god, "Gitchee Manitou" and this became the official Native name for the Christian God. Brebeuf used it, for example, in his Christmas Carol.

And the province of Manitoba here is named for it as well, including "Manitoulin Island."

There is nothing wrong with a Christianized meaning for "Om" and, in any event, it is being used by Christians in Asia in their devotions, and has been, for some years.

If you are so against inculturation of Christianity, then you should not be either Catholic or Orthodox.

Protestant critics of both, correctly, cite many, many instances of Christianized traditions that we have that are taken directly from pagan sources.

And then there are the Indian Orthodox ashrams, the Indian Catholic monastic communities that imitate closely the culture of Hindu monks.

If you were a monk in India, you would be obliged to understand and follow a number of rules emanating from Hinduism concerning religious observance.

You could not be a monk in India and where a Cross made of silver or gold - that would be considered irreligious.

St Innocent of Moscow, the intrepid missionary to Siberia and Alaska, met St Nicholas Kassatkin before he went off to Japan.

He knew the ways of the East and asked Nicholas to get him some silk.

He made a beautiful cassock for him and gave him a silver cross.

When asked why he needed these things, St Innocent said, "You are going to Japan - they won't respect you if you are not dressed properly etc."

The Cross itself was, as we know, worshipped as a pagan symbol for centuries.

If you don't believe me, go to the British Museum and have a look at the statues of the Assyrian kings from 3,000 BC.

They are ALL wearing crosses on their necks as we do today.

Missionaries simply changed the meaning of those pagan symbols to relate them to Christ.

Again, let's keep things in perspective here.

There are also Catholic Zen Temples in Japan and elsewhere where Christians apply Eastern techniques to Christian worship themes.

Famous for this was Thomas Merton.

And at the Vatican international missionary conference some years back, one Franciscan constructed a Christian Church that looked exactly like a Hindu temple, but with Christian thematics, of course.

We are called to preach Christianity to ALL NATIONS and we are called to BECOME all things to all people.

Nowhere does the Scripture say that we are to impose Western cultural Christianity on anyone.

Alex

Alex,

All of that sounds nice and I can appreciate it but I have been to India and observed the following:

1) All of the RC Churches I visited did not do the inculturation thing to this extreme, as it is seen as false to their identity: they are not Hindus and don't want to be. Taking Hindu music and putting Christian words to it is fine, but mixing and matching symbols is not.

2) Om symbols on Christ is clearly in this context pagan and has nothing to do with indigenous culture. These people are Gnostics.

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

Certainly not all, or even most Latin Churches in India follow the "Hinduization" inculturation model.

I fail to see how it would go against their identity.

And during a conference of Christians of Asia some years back, reported in our local Catholic press, comments were made decrying the failure of Christians to relate Christianity to the spiritual culture of Asia, pagan though it may be.

The fact is that Christianity has been an abject failure in Asia with some notable exceptions, like the Philippines.

I think that its failure to acculturate could be a part of the reason for this.

Again, how one uses "Om" is how one will interpret it.

No one has yet come up with a final definition of what it means. Buddhists who don't believe in God or any deity at all use it in their meditation.

I have seen Syriac Catholic publications with the "Om" symbol and the Daily Office published by the Syriac Catholics mentioned by Fr. Taft in his book on the Horologion - which I ordered and received - makes use of the "Om" symbol quite extensively throughout its pages.

And this is the Divine Office - and the Syriac Catholic monks also bring in readings from the "Holy Books of India."

AND they were heartily congratulated for their work on the Syriac Office by the Syriac/Indian Orthodox Church that encouraged them to continue their work.

We don't have to accept it and I know it sounds strange.

But let's remember that the many, many things European Christianity adopted from the Greco-Roman pagan world must have seem strange when that happened as well.

Alex

Dear Alex,

It would go against their identity precisely because they are Christians!

In my experiences in India (and I expect that they square by and large with Anastasios' experiences in the North, which are particularly relevant since my experience up there is slim to nil in almost any regard), I have never beheld anyone, Catholic or Orthodox, who was inculturated to the extent of mixing symbols so blatantly. When I watched the beatification of Blessed Teresa, although I admitted that it was certainly possible that it was necessary in some cultures, I noted that I thought the "liturgical dancing" was a bit odd because I've never seen it, nor have I heard of anyone actually needing it.

Usually, inculturation takes the form of oil lamps in churches, the allowance for instruments in worship if desired (although not everyone does it, I've seen full classical Indian orchestras play during Divine Liturgies and other services, and when done, it's absolutely splendid), and Hindu rites of passage that have been Christianised and preserved (for instance, feeding a month old child gold and honey). I've even seen images of Christ and the Mother of God as Indians.

Never, however, have I seen anything like this, with Christ and the Mother of God sitting, meditating, and where (for RC's, who form a good portion of their customers) the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts should be. I've seen, oddly enough, the image of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in an Orthodox church over there (!!), but not anything like this. Never mind the meaning of OM--I'm not even clear about it--but the people themselves, at least the ones I know, would not want it, and those Indian converts that I do know weren't converted in any way because of such things.

A lot of what you say here is true. Failure to adapt certain adaptables to the native culture is part of the reason. Generally, though, my own impression is that Christianity is seen as the religion of the colonial power; it is viewed as a foreign religion. The native culture, then, is seen to be best promoted by following the native religion, and if you embrace some form of Western religion, you are not really X-ian. A lot of work needs to be done, surely, in order to make people see that Christianity is not about the colonialists or about the morally fallen and quite foreign West, but about Christ.

In this regard, our own Indian Orthodox Church is in a special position; we are an Indian Church under indigenous Indian leaders, and so we are not considered a foreign religion, unlike our brothers in the Syrian Jacobite Church, who are just as Indian as we are, but are under a "foreign" leader (the Patriarch in Syria), much less the Catholics (Rome) or the Protestants (Britain, America?). We have the opportunity to do great things in India, and we are trying, although sadly it is court cases that often consume them to such an extent that the more weightier matters are left on the fringe.

It certainly will take a long time and a lot of work to re-evangelise Asia because of these and other things, but if the Indian experience that Anastasios and I concur on is any indication, people will want to embrace Christianity on its own terms, and once this is done, they will like some of the inculturation, but they will not want to over-do it, because *now* they are Christians. Of course, they will always show respect to their former religious tradition, but they will be very clear regarding mixing things up.

As you know, Alex, I am familiar with this work now, so I can say a little about it. I have never been to Kurishumala, so I can't say anything definitive about their community liturgical life. I think it is interesting that they want to go the path of that much inculturation (and, IIRC, I once saw a photo of Father Bede Griffiths celebrating liturgy in the lotus posture with people sitting around a table, while the picture was described as a "Malankar rite" Mass) in an area which has had a Christian presence longer than most Western nations. I've never seen our people wanting that much inculturation liturgically.

Be that as it may, I (and maybe I'm a purist) have a problem with mixing symbols like that. Thankfully, most of the symbols in the book are things like oil lamps, palm trees, etc., and I haven't encountered OM all that much, although it is definitely there.

I also have a problem with the incoporation of Vedic texts into the Divine Office. Again, thankfully, they are clearly marked off, and are only in the first volume of the four volume set (the Sh'himo volume), and so one can omit them (as I do) when praying with the books. Doctrinally, only a few of them give me any pause, but maybe I am misunderstanding them: the rest of them seem fairly consistent with our faith as I have learned it. I just don't see why it is necessary to include them in the text of the Divine Office, rather than in an appendix or something. They are clear in the books that they are intended to be the service books of that particular monastery, and so I suppose they would want them where they are, but they are also clear that they can be omitted, and are not a necessary part of the liturgical order.

I do not have the third volume (the book for Lent) handy right now, but I've read the commendatory letters from the heads of the Jacobite and Orthodox Churches that are contained therein. Nowhere do I recall either of the Catholicoi concerned praising the editions for these examples of inculturation: they seem silent on the issue. The fact is that, as far as I can tell, they were the first major attempt to translate the Syriac Offices into English, and they are remarkably accurate. In a sense, the translation was ahead of its time (it is only in recent years that signficant translation work is being done to translate the Syriac liturgical books into English by Orthodox). It is an invaluable contribution by Catholics to Syriac Christianity, and I love it, and it was well-recommended by Orthodox hierarchs. But I think it is more accurate to say that those hierarchs had no opinion or expressed no opinion on the inculturated elements, and they are clearly something not integral to the Office. I've showed these books to Indian friends and family, and they love it, but almost all of them thought the inclusion of Hindu texts unnecessary.

Somebody is claiming that the used of the Lotus posture while celebrating Mass has Rome's approval. May we have a reference, please? Incognitus

Its this simple find their old bishops name i believe it was burke or something along thouse lines, and do an amazon search, which will indeed bring up a book writen by him called Being a Gnostic Orthodox Christians, or some thing along thouse lines, i found this out from a man that posted a link at EWTN.

In Christ
Daniel

Hey Alex- shouldn't you change your name to "Eclectic Catholic?" You don't seem that "Orthodox" in either sense of the word. [I'd insert a smiley face here if I didn't sort of intuitively abhor that sort of thing]

Oil lamps in a church can hardly be called specific to Indian culture! Incognitus

Just as an aside, when the Jews went to translate their Scriptures into Greek, they had to choose a word for their word "Elohim" or God. Elohim is plural in Hebrew but the connotation wouldn't come off in Greek. It would sound polytheistic. They chose the word "theos" (like theology) which is actually related to the Indo-European word from which we get "Deus" in Latin and "Zeus" for the cheif Greek god. "D", "Z", and "Th" all being dental constanants.

It is a pagan word recontextualized for truth's sake. Nothing wrong with that.

in Christ,
Marshall

Hi Folks,

I'm trying to locate the canons which prescribe the writing of icons. My search engine can't find these on the web. Could someone help me locate the church's canons on icons?

In Jesus, Our Lord and Mary, Our Mother,

Paul

Try www.vatican.va [vatican.va] thats a start, or find the
code of canon law socitety web site, and you can buy a copy of the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churchs, which would i believe have the icon writing guidlines.

In Christ+
Daniel

Ah, but I'm not talking about your ordinary, run of the mill, oil lamp that you might find hanging in front of the icons in your local Greek/Russian/etc. Orthodox church and that you can buy from online Orthodox goods sources. I'm talking about a type of oil lamp that is particularly Indian.