www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology MonasteryIcons.com

Alex, a MOST brilliant discourse on inculturation. Cultural identity is just that, part of the identity of the people, and will most definitely spill over into religious ritual, even if that ritual is completely imported and starts out foriegn. And as long as the people live it too will live, and change, and evolve.

The Holy Father in Slavorum Apostoli mentions the brilliance of Sts. Cyril and Methodius in regard to Christian/Slavic inculturation. Case in point with Ukrainians - pysanky, didukh, kutya, etc. all have pre-Christian origin and have been beautifully integrated into the Christian traditions.

Now, what does all of this have to do with Monastery Icons??? Never mind me...

Dear Diak,

I guess some people took a detour from monastery icons to take some pot-shots at Alex because the condescending sot had the gall to say some things they hadn't heard of before . . .

And I'm not bitter!

Alex

Join the club...like what happened to me when I told the young ones from SVS they weren't according to Hoyle (the Hoylski Typikon? ) No one likes to have their balloons burst, I reckon...

Dear Diak,

Yes, I too wonder about their age . . .

Were we that self-confident when we were that age, do you think?

When I was in university, I wanted to change the world.

Now I'm happy if I manage to change my underwear properly . . .

Alex

I'm sorry, but it seems that you did not understand what I was getting at.

As I've written here previously, there is a controversy, and has been for sometime, in the Syro-Malabar Church over the Liturgy. Rome and the Synod/Hierarchs of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church want to reform the Liturgy with a view to bringing it more in line with Eastern (specifically Chaldean) traditions. But there is a good portion of that Church, clergy and lay (perhaps it is a slight majority) that is in favour of rejecting this, because they see it as an attempt at making the Liturgy more foreign to them, and (some say) as an attempt at bringing them under the authority of the Chaldean Catholic Church, rather than respecting their autonomy. They are in favour of making the Liturgy more "Indian", and more in line with what the Liturgy was like before the Portuguese landed on our shores. The problem with this is that we have no real idea what that Liturgy looked like, since the Latin Archbishop had all our books burned. In reality, what they are trying to do in making the Liturgy "more Indian" is really to codify a good number of latinisations that have been in the Syro-Malabar Liturgy, precisely those which Rome and the Synod are trying to remove in favour of having them become more Eastern. If you will pardon the expression, they want to make a Novus Ordo type Syro-Malabar rite, and Rome would like them to be more "Orthodox".

So in a sense, yes, somehow they need to get the message that to become truly Eastern (and in their case Chaldean in rite and theology) is not to become foreign. The Nestorians in India have remained faithful to their tradition to this day, and they do not have this problem, they do not consider themselves or their religion to be foreign. So why do the much larger Syro-Malabar faithful have this issue with being more Eastern? And why is their solution to become more Latin (or to canonise the latinised status quo)? Or let them do as they please, as long as it is within the bounds of orthodoxy, but, respectfully, I don't think they can claim being "Eastern" for very long. Having attended some of their services in India, this is my opinion of the situation.

I agree with you that the Liturgy is not the property of the individual bishop, but if the RC bishops in India allow for some things, and Rome has no problem with allowing this directly (by indult) or indirectly (through the local ordinaries), then what is the difference? In either case, the Catholic Church approves of it, even if not allowing it to be the norm in every place.

Dear Qathuliqa Mor Ephrem,

Perhaps Incognitus needs some inculturating himself?

Whenever I want to experiment with a new culture, I begin with the food and then graduate to its Church.

The questions you raise are most serious and important.

I just wish I had the serious focus that they deserve with which to respond to them.

I'm just trying to picture you and MsGuided on a date right now.

That's all I can manage . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

I'm expecting in the near future to receive in my email a photo (from a digital camera) of the two of us at a semi-formal here at school. If you want, I can send that along when I get it so that you won't have to imagine us on a date, and that way you can spend your energies on responding to my post. :p

Alex may have unearthed my problem - it's quite true that I dislike Indian cuisine (which may well be the reason that I've never visited Kerala). But there is no particular reason to doubt that the Church in India was quite well rooted in India until the Portuguese turned up, and that the real foreign elements are to be found in what the Portuguese imposed before, at and after Diamper. Nor is there any doubt that the Syro-Malabar Church continued to want to maintain the link with the Chaldean Patriarch, right into the early 20th century. So it would seem that had that link been maintained without the interference of Lisbon, Rome, and others, the Liturgy would have remained more-or-less consistently Chaldean and development would have followed development in the Patriarchate, allowing for the inevitable divergences in small matters which distance and difficult communications would have fostered. The present situation, of course, is far different, but even John Paul II is discovering that it is much easier to cause a horrible mess than to clean it up. Incognitus

Dear Qathuliqa,

You're on, Big Guy!

Alex

Dear Incognitus,

Yes, you are quite right.

I tend to trust the Indian Orthodox Churches (with the Assyrians) more to properly represent both the historic and the current process of ongoing inculturation than anyone else.

And archaeologists today know that the Mahayana Buddhists of China also underwent a process of Christian inculturation - they borrowed from the tradition of Assyrian mitres and other liturgical vestments.

But I'll stop now - I can hear Cantor Joseph bristling at the mention of vestments . . .

(I think we should send him a communal smiley)

Alex