www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Differences between Russian and Ruthenian usages?

Dave, the only situation I know of with regard to pre-cut particles in an Orthodox parish was a case with someone I know who was an Orthodox missionary in Africa and I can't remember the exact circumstances but it involved some kind of dire situation.

I have never seen this done in Orthodox parishes in the USA or Canada and have not seen it done in any Greek Catholic parishes for several years (although the practice may still exist in some Greek Catholic parishes). It is definitely an abuse and in violation of the Ordo and Typikon in Greek Catholic usages.

In my experience the majority of Ruthenian parishes today still use pre-cut prosphora. One parish I know of restored the practice of distributing antidoron at the end of Liturgy and has different lay people bake loaves. However, they are expected to cut the loaf before they bring it to church.

I've been told in the past that the traditional prosphora traditions (whole loaves, blessed bread an ablution, and antidoron at the end of Liturgy) are not part of the Ruthenian tradition but are part of the Russian tradition. AFAIK, this is not a true statement. These are part of our original tradition, aren't they?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Dave,

Well, here in Toronto most parishes use the pre-cut variety.

I've heard some of our priests sneer at the "Loaf-cutters" as Russifiers.

Ultimately, for us Ukies, the question is not really what is the original Eastern tradition or even "our original tradition."

It is a question of what was the usage of the Galicia of yesteryear - their measuring stick for true Orthodoxy.

Alex

Friends,

Pre-cut prosphora is still status quo in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh. I would think that Fr. David when refering to Orthodox using pre-cut particles was refering to ACROD parishes.

Fr. Mark,

Pre-cut particles are exactly what they sound like. Rather than extract the Lamb and particles from five (or seven in the Old Rite) prosphora, all are pre-cut before liturgy so at the Proskomede and the Fraction nothing needs cut or fractioned other than the Lamb, which is scored with the Cross at the Proskomede and divided in four at the fraction.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Dear Reverend Subdeacon Lance,

I guess there are those who no longer consider themselves "cutting edge" in terms of Eastern practice, eh?

O.K., I'll get back to work . . .

Alex

Alex,

I guess they are on pre-cutting edge. Please just Subdeacon Lance, I am not entitled to the style Reverend.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Dear Revered Subdeacon Lance,

I could have used "venerated" but I thought that really WAS jumping the gun!

Alex

Try "Venerable," Alex, e.g., "The Venerable Subdeacon Lance."

Nope, nope. That would look too much like St. Bede the Venerable.

Aren't Anglican archdeacons styled "Venerable" anyway? When he's ordained Deacon, Subdeacon Lance could switch to Anglican and apply for an archdeaconship with them and be "venerated!" :-)

OrthodoxEast

Dear OrthodoxEast,

Well, if Lance lived closer to me, he'd probably want to whack me one (or two) for that!

He's not a violent man, but I'm sure even he has his limits!

I think "Venerable" in the East applies to monastics, does it not?

In the West, it does tend to sound like a sexually transmitted disease . . .

You are in a good mood today (almost mischievous, I daresay).

The weather's good where you are, or does Uniate company make you giddy?

Alex

Subdeacon Lance wrote:

That may well be. I do have a priest friend correspondent who pastors an ACROD parish who has restored complete prosphora traditions including blessed bread as an ablution at Communion time. Shows it can be done without scandalizing the faithful.

Having freshly made bread to use for the ablution is essential (especially if one follows the Greek practice of only offering bread and not wine also like the Russians). Dried out bread will not work for the ablution.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave, the practice you describe has also been restored in a couple of parishes in the Parma Eparchy. Our ablution bread is separate and is not blessed. After the priest cuts each of the prosphora I am blessed to take out some for ablution and cut some more for antidoron (which is blessed).

I didn't realize that pre-cut "crispy critters" were still so prevalent especially in the Pittsburg Archeparchy. I guess some latinizations appear to die harder than others. A priest friend of mine in the ACROD also maintains that they do a full Proskomidia and don't do "pre-fab proskomidia" anymore.

Alex, St. Elias and St. Demetrius had a full Proskomidia when I attended there. Tell me it's not true that they use pre-cut particles at St. Nicholas...

Yes, Alex, I am in an unusually good mood. Attribute it to our new priest. He's restoring correct liturgical chant and rubrics to our OCA parish--something that apparently has been missing for about 40 years here--in fact, there was a point in time back then, I'm told, that my current parish fell under the influence of The Living Church, which even did one of their episcopal consecrations in our Temple. That caused a schism in our parish back then, with one small group in the parish going to the ROCOR and forming a new parish (which still exists), and the other, my present OCA parish, finally disconnecting itself from The Living Church and entering the (former) Metropolia.

Now I'm part of all this renewal, and I feel wonderful about it. I'm in the choir and Father usually asks me to be the Reader for Vespers, the Hours and Divine Liturgy. My short stint of diaconal training at the Melkite seminary has really paid off!

OrthodoxEast

Dear OE, do you all use the St. Vlad's/Drillock music or also use some Carpatho-Russian/ Galician stuff?

Sounds like we might have a reader or even subdeacon in the making

Dear Diak,

We use whatever music we have. Some of it in Old Slavonic was actually composed and arranged by one of our long-deceased choir directors!

But we do use almost everything new that comes out of St. Vladimir's Seminary as well, which includes much Kievan chant, which our choir is especially fond of. We're now starting to do even the Alleluia's in the correct tone at Sunday Liturgy, have added the Tropar(s) and Kondak(s) for the principal Saints of the Day, and have restored the Theotokion where the rubrics call for it. During the Communion of the clergy, Father has requested that the Reader (moi!) chant a few pre-Communion prayers as well (this latter element is totally new for this parish, even if it is "old stuff" elsewhere).

OrthodoxEast

Dear Randolph,

At the top of page 8 of "The Divine Liturgy A BOOK OF PRAYER For the Liturgies of St. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM and ST. BASIL THE GREAT Designed, complied, and adapted from approved sources by Rev. William Levkulik Published and distributed with Ecclesiastical approval by BYZANTINE SEMINARY PRESS 3605 Perrysville Road, Pittsburgh, PA, 15214, 1978" we find On major Feast Days special Antiphons may be be prescribed; or the following Psalm exerpts may be sung in place of the usual Antiphons. then follows in the usual side-by-side English-Slavonic format, Bless the Lord, O my soul... / Blahoslovi duse moja Hospoda... and then Praise the Lord, O my soul... / Chvali duse moja Hospoda.... These are called "Typical Psalms" usually and are sung either abbreviated or more fully in various locales.

Before the introduction of the new pew books in Passaic this was the only pew book I had ever seen in any BC Ruthenian parish and until recently the only one in the Pittsburgh. Recently some parishes have begun a noble effort to prepare and provide their own version of a pew book. Even in Passaic these books are usually available as they contain all the changing parts.

I think this is the same book Lance refers to in an earlier post.

Tony