www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Differences between Russian and Ruthenian usages?

Dear Tony, what is in the 1978 Levkulic blue or maroon pew books can hardly be considered the Typical Psalms but only one verse from each. Doesn't get much more abbreviated than that. :rolleyes:

I guess if we want to split hairs a very small relic verse of Psalms 102 and 145 are present, but DEFNITELY no Beatitudes. And in the Russian usage this is when the Small Entrance takes place. In the UGCC pew books both psalms are included in a much more complete text with the Beatitudes. In the 1965 Pittsburgh soft-bound pew books with music, still very prevalent in Ruthenian parishes, not even these abbreviated two or three verses of Psalms 102 or 145 are present nor the Beatitudes.


OE, some of Drillock's work in settings of lesser Znamenny, Glagolev, Bakhmatev and other music have been wonderful.

Another thing that is very nice at communion that you may want to consider chanting that I do sometimes is to chant excerpts of the pre-Communion canon recto tono if you need some more time. The text for this is readily available like in the Jordanville prayer book, etc.

Subdeacon Randolph,

While pre-cut, the prosphora is fresh and soft in my experience.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

I have to go back to my 1941 Nebesnaja Manna to find in any of my books (including Sokol) that has the third antiphon. Thus, also no beatitudes.

"Crispy critters" is not mine but a term coined by a famous archpriest of the Eparchy of Toronto. I think he was referring to pre-cut prosphora that was refrigerated for a while before use. I didn't mean any disrespect.

Soft or otherwise, it is a Latinization. The Ordo and the Liturgikon call for the particles to be placed on the diskos after cutting and lifting, not a tupperware container at the rectory. The Instruction on Applying the Liturgical Principles of the CCEO also speak to this - "...in as much as the preparation of the bread for the Eucharist is an integral part of the celebration".

How can the Orthodox think we are legitimately returning to authentic Byzantine tradition as Greek Catholics when we can't even do the Proskomidia right? I hope by your post you are not implicitly defending this practice, Lance.

Dear OE, did you know there are troparia to intersperse with the Beatitudes in the eight tones ? These are really wonderful. They are interspersed with the verses of the Beatitudes similar to interspersing stikhera at Psalm 140 at Vespers. Usually there are six troparia for Sundays and a Glory, a Triadicon, Both now, and a Theotokion.

Also there are other good reasons to sing portions of the pre-communion or another Canon at communion. They are an essential and preminent example of Byzantine hymnography and as such convey rich theology. Also with the crazy 24/7 schedule of many working folks in the parishes, not every one can come for Matins nor does every parish have Matins, so it is a way for people to hear these beautiful texts.

Lastly, in a practical sense, the canons are comprised of short irmoi and troparia so when you need something of variable length (as at communion you have variable numbers of communicants, some priests take longer, etc.) it is much easier to stop after an ode or troparia. If you are singing pre-communion prayers it is a liturgical non-sequitor if you stop in the middle of a prayer or have to rush, etc.

Just a quick reply, Diak.

Yes, I am aware that there are Troparia appointed to be sung between the verses of the Beatitudes on certain occasions. These are used in my parish only very occasionally thus far, however (we don't want a full-scale rebellion against our new priest "with all his changes--that's not the way Father __ did it, etc.,etc.etc.!!!."

We have a long way to go to make up for 40 years of neglect in this area, and, on top of it all, most other Slav Orthodox parishes, even the ROCOR ones, do not make use of these beautiful Troparia.

However, as far as using parts of the Canon of Matins during the clergy's Communion: we've been doing that for quite some time, especially during Paschaltide. During the communing of the Laity, however, it's usual for us always to sing (*except* at Presanctified or Great Thursday), "Receive the Body of Christ.....cup of Immortality" continuously, alternating between Slavonic and English.

OrthodoxEast

OE, it is proper to sing Receive the Body of Christ/Tilo Christove at the communion of the faithful. I was referring to the Priest's communion when singing a Canon. You had mentioned earlier that you were asked to sing the pre-communion prayers at the priests communion and I had this vision of someone chanting one of the longer pre-communion prayers and having to stop mid-stream...

And it is a matter of pastoral prudence to not make things completely unrecognizable to the parish liturgically overnight. One thing at a time and let the dust settle.

Subdeacon Randolph,

Not defending the practice, but not condemning it either. Restoration needs to take place in many areas and on many levels, some are more important than others. My personal opinion is that pre-cut prosphora is less about convenience, although this is certainly a factor, and more about fear of creating crumbs at the fraction. So I think understanding should be given on this issue.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Fr Petras had (in the reference given on page 1 of this discussion) attributed it more to practicality. I don't mean for this thread to bog down on the issue of pre-cut prosphora. I do believe it is a significant issue. Most Orthodox I've talked to are scandalized by our practice.

I can accept the view (as much as I disagree with it) that restoring prosphora traditions is not that important. And as I've already said, I don't want this thread to focus solely on that issue. What are some of the "many areas" where "restoration needs to take place"?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Lance, I don't agree with your tepidity on this issue. This is one practice that the pastor can reinstate easily and there is no reason, pastoral or otherwise, for continuing this practice. In most parishes the extra five or so minutes before Liturgy at the Proskomidia to actually follow the Ordo and Liturgikon wouldn't even be noticed, especially if the parish is in the practice of singing at least one of the Hours before the DL. I can't see any reason whatsoever for supporting this particular aberration.

Dear Diak,

But the pre-cut thingy is quite widespread up here and there are occasions when the other practice is deemed "Russian."

Simply because there are rules in place does not mean that people will accept them.

One priest I know refused to do anything that was "different from the practices I knew in Halychyna."

Alex

From comments I have heard it has nothing to do with the proskomedia, in fact proskomedia the "right" (meaning by the book) way is almost as short or even shorter; cutting up all those particles is what takes time. So, it is after the elevation and fraction in the liturgy where the perceived "slow-down" takes places. I am sure crumbing is an issue to some too. So, in the interest of streamlining the movement from elevation/fraction to Communion of the faithful, pre-cut particles certainly work in that respect.

Tony

To be clear: my reference above to "cutting up all those particles is what takes time" is particles for communion not commemorative. In practice among the Ruthenians this distinction seems to be blurred.

Alex, I can think of a few UGCC parishes in Toronto where the full Proskomidia is offered - I wonder if this practice of "pre-cut" is yet another Basilianism that has crept into our parishes...

Why do the Proskomidia at all in the church if we are worried about crumbs and convienience??? I can't see why another five minutes can't be taken to restore the authentic and proper practice.

With regard to the fractions, if the parish is singing the Divine Liturgy, they will all ready be singing "One is Holy" and a Communion verse during the fraction. We already mentioned the possibility of chanting part of a Canon also during the communion of the priest and deacon.

I think part of the reason for the pre-fraction was also precisely because of the prevalence of Basilianesque "read", "recited" or even "private" Liturgies in addition to wanting to shorten the Proskomidia iteself before Liturgy. If the "One is Holy", Communion verse, etc. are all reduced to a mumbling recital there would be a pregnant silence during the fraction and communion of the Priest. After all, if the priest had to get out of there in 30 minutes... :rolleyes:

The preparation of the Sacrifice is part of the Divine Liturgy. If in preparation we are going to give into abbreviation, "convenience", etc. where does this mind set take us into the Divine Liturgy itself?

And I really hope there are greater concerns than a few crumbs for restoration of our tradition.

I don't think it is the extra five minutes before the Liturgy that people would mind. It is the five+ added during the Divine Liturgy to cut up the Lamb. And perhaps this is the "crumbing" to which some refer.

Not that I support pre-cutting... I can just see their rationale.

Dave