The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Leeno, San Nicolas, Skanderbeg, ClearwaterByz, Nate
5,843 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 104 guests, and 29 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,166
Posts414,952
Members5,843
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#421852 01/30/22 07:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Likes: 8
R
Member
OP Offline
Member
R
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Likes: 8
Sviatoslav Shevchuk. Is he a Patriarch? Is he a Major Archbishop? I read headlines referring to him as both. I know they are not interchangable terms. But is major archbishop even an Eastern Catholic title? Or is this a carry-over latinization from the "dark times" that still seems to linger?

On the subject of being Patriarch, how would he receive the title? Would the other Catholic Patriarchs have to approve the title/office to him by way of synod? Surely it wouldn't come from the Pope, since we are not "under" the Pope in matters of ecclesiology. What's the deal?

Thanks in advance!

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 16
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 16
He is commentated as Patriarch in the liturgy but Rome has not conceded the title yet. Major Archbishop as a title was created at Vatican II to raise the Metropolitan of Lviv over the other Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitans. The idea of a first hierarch having full autocephaly without the title of patriarch is ancient. The Archbishop of Cyprus being the first example.

It is for the Pope or an Ecumenical Council to elevate a church to the rank of patriarchate.

Last edited by Fr. Deacon Lance; 02/02/22 01:43 AM.

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Likes: 8
R
Member
OP Offline
Member
R
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Likes: 8
Why would it be up to the Pope? The Pope is nothing more than the Patriarch of the Roman/Latin Church. He is not supreme. Papal supremacy is an error. It is a perversion of primacy. The Eastern Catholic Churches need to assert themselves and remind Rome that her Pope is the first "among equals" and not the supreme overlord standing in for God Himself.

With the 5 ancient Patriarchates, Rome was the one who left. The other 4 remain united in Holy Orthodoxy (despite their politics making their communion a bit of a mess themselves).

I guess this whole notion really bothers me. We don't "need" the Pope to elevate our clergy, much less to "pick" our clergy for us. It is a grave abuse that Rome believes herself entitled to pick our bishops in the west. Rome will never accomplish re-establishing communion with Holy Orthodoxy if she continues to suppress our actual autonomy. And, to be fair to Rome, it's not even so much that she is forcing this stuff on us anymore, so much as our clergy are permitting it and embracing it willingly. This is half the reason we get so much ire from the Orthodox. They see us claiming to be as they are, yet we fully capitulate to Rome in all her abuses and overreaches. How do you, personally, reconcile all of this?

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 24
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 24
Quote
Why would it be up to the Pope? The Pope is nothing more than the Patriarch of the Roman/Latin Church. He is not supreme. Papal supremacy is an error. It is a perversion of primacy. The Eastern Catholic Churches need to assert themselves and remind Rome that her Pope is the first "among equals" and not the supreme overlord standing in for God Himself.

Ruthenian1988,

Christ is in our midst!!

Easy. Let's not get our blood pressure up. The reality of the Catholic Communion, of which the Eastern Catholic Churches are part, is that Vatican I defined our reality differently. That said, Vatican I is a stumbling block to all those outside our Catholic Communion when it comes to discussions of ecumenical dialogues and discussions of renewed communion of all the Churches and ecclesial communities which preach Jesus Christ. That is reality; that is our take on the truth; that is our take on Christ's instruction to St Peter. The Pope approves all of our canon law collections. He exercises the right to change or abrogate any single law. He is the only one who is not required to tender his resignation at the age of 75; he accepts all the resignations. No one may question his moves. That is reality.

Your historical assertion about who left who is a matter of who is writing history.

There is no perfect way to organize Church life. The Catholic system rubs some the wrong way, but there is a final authority to sort things out. In Protestantism, when things don't' work out, people separate and set up new organizations. In Orthodoxy, as we are seeing to our great dismay, we have a current de facto schism going on and it seems there is no resolution. (BTW, I am greatly saddened by the current developments because I firmly believe that we need what Orthodoxy has to offer in terms of how the Faith is lived out.)

I personally have come to see the Office of Peter as exercised in the Catholic Church as necessary, though I may harbor some of the things you mention. We have Catholic bishops who do not uphold the faith, just as other Churches and ecclesial communities do. But we do have a place where the buck stops and we can know what is definitely to be held as the Faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a great example of this. While there is a currently a great argument over Catholic politicians flouting the issue of the Church's teachings in their public statements and lives, we can know for certain what is and what is not the truth in the matter, especially about who should and who should not be receiving the Eucharist.

Ultimately it comes down to your and my living out the Fatih and the example we give. I am not responsible for the celestial discussions of who is the boss/who is at the top of the pile or the justification of it all. I am responsible for the people I serve and the example I give, the words I speak and the people I either edify or scandalize. When I meet the Lord, this is what He will ask, not my arguments about titles or organizational charts. He will ask if I have been the first to be a peacemaker, the first to reconcile, the first to offer forgiveness to those who have wronged me. He will ask if I have been His eyes to seek out, His ears to listen, His voice to encourage and to pray, His hands to work, His arms to embrace, His legs to carry me where He needs His Presence to be. Christ has no Presence here right now except the presence I give and the image of Him that I am called to be by my Baptism.

Bob


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5