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Yes - in Finland The Lutheran, Orthodox and Catholic church are using The same calendar. Se on viisautta! Olkaamme vakaat!

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Originally Posted by Krysostomos
Yes - in Finland The Lutheran, Orthodox and Catholic church are using The same calendar. Se on viisautta! Olkaamme vakaat!
And how in particular is it working out there for the Orthodox? Do the Orthodox acknowledge and give witness to a wisdom to which all should be attentive?

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Well, in fact, I just don't know...

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Originally Posted by ajk
[quote=ajk]

One of the difficulties about the calendar issue is that it has so many dimensions: historical, theological, sociological, pastoral, scientific; it requires an interdisciplinary approach. For instance, consider this Fr. John Whiteford on the New Calendar Controversy in Orthodoxy (Interview with Michael Lofton) (link [youtube.com]), streamed live on Jan 14, 2020, and the relative proportion of each of the dimensions.

In that presentation Fr. John Whiteford stated that the Sigillon of 1583 was forged. Do you know anything about this?

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Originally Posted by ajk
One of the difficulties about the calendar issue is that it has so many dimensions: historical, theological, sociological, pastoral, scientific; it requires an interdisciplinary approach. For instance, consider this Fr. John Whiteford on the New Calendar Controversy in Orthodoxy (Interview with Michael Lofton) (link [youtube.com]), streamed live on Jan 14, 2020, and the relative proportion of each of the dimensions.

In that presentation Fr. John Whiteford stated that the Sigillon of 1583 was forged. Do you know anything about this?
No, I don't, and thanks for reminding me about his comment. I remembered someone had called into question the legitimacy of that 16th c. rejection of the Gregorian reform by the Orthodox, but couldn't recall who it was -- too bad he didn't give a reference.

I've tried to find out more about calendar reform in the East both prior to but especially during the 4+ centuries after the Gregorian reform, but to no avail.

I'm listening to the interview (again) as I write this. Fr. John is intelligent and non-polemical but he is sufficiently misinformed and imprecise that he presents the calendar issue as ultimately being somewhat arbitrary, even whimsical; and that only legitimizes stalemate and the status quo.

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Christ is in our midst!!

Each year at the Orthodox Pascha celebration the appearance of the Holy Fire occurs in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. It does not occur on the date the Resurrection is observed on the Gregorian calendar. It first appears to the Greek Orthodox patriarch and then to the Armenian patriarch of Jerusalem. How this occurs only on the date observed by the Orthodox and only on the date they observe Pascha is a mystery.

The Holy Fire appears as a blue flame and does not burn a person who touches it, according to a first hand observation by a man who later was a bishop and then metropolitan of the Orthodox Church in America.

Does this, perhaps, explain one of the reasons for the Orthodox refusal to use the Gregorian calendar calculation?

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Originally Posted by theophan
Christ is in our midst!!

Each year at the Orthodox Pascha celebration the appearance of the Holy Fire occurs in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. It does not occur on the date the Resurrection is observed on the Gregorian calendar. It first appears to the Greek Orthodox patriarch and then to the Armenian patriarch of Jerusalem. How this occurs only on the date observed by the Orthodox and only on the date they observe Pascha is a mystery.

The Holy Fire appears as a blue flame and does not burn a person who touches it, according to a first hand observation by a man who later was a bishop and then metropolitan of the Orthodox Church in America.

Does this, perhaps, explain one of the reasons for the Orthodox refusal to use the Gregorian calendar calculation?
It has not been a prominent point in the discussions I have had on this form dating back to 2008. I recall this occurrence, Re: Common Easter date?; see also the posts that follow it.

The norm or rule for determining the yearly date of Pascha that is associated with the Council of Nicaea is stated (with some variance) and accepted; the significant issue is in how it is correctly applied (Gregorian) or misapplied (Julian). I, therefore, must conclude that this is an instance where God accepts the sincere and genuine and fervent devotion of those using the Julian Paschalion, even though they (usually) have the wrong date.

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Just had this thought and question.

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Right, it was an appropriate thought and a valid question.

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Originally Posted by Utroque
It just makes eminent sense to adopt the spirit of the Council of Nicaea and adopt the calendar that is in use today as the basis for calculating Pascha. If there are those churches that refuse, so be it. Let them carry on their "Third Rome" pretense. Does any one care anymore?
Prior to composing this post I thought about that, who cares, especially with all the troubles of the world. Yet the churches have struggled with this issue, documented since at least the mid-second century AD Quartodeciman controversy. And as this thread witnesses, the WCC and an Orthodox Church and member in particular, have brought it to our attention again.

Also, we are the victim of circumstance; it turns out that there recently occurred everywhere throughout the whole world, and at the very same instant, an event relevant to this discussion: the northern hemisphere vernal (spring) equinox. This is a primary event used for timing and so the correct question is not When did it occur? but What was your particular timing device indicating when it happened?. For my time zone and clock, for instance, it happened yesterday 20-March-2022 on the civil calendar at 11:33 am Eastern Daylight Time (An informative article that has other details is When does spring 2022 start? [usatoday.com]).

The calendar and methods for timing Pesach/Passover and Pascha have gone through phases that I would classify as:

(1) Observational: OT to early NT times
(2) Computus using averages (Pascahalion): Nicaea (4th c) to present
(3) Modern detailed scientific, astronomical: 20-21st c.

Using detailed discrete calculations had been considered during the Gregorian reform. They were initially favored by Clavius, its chief architect, but the traditional computus approach was adopted.

The latest proposal, initiated by some Orthodox in the early 20th c., favored by Aleppo (1997) and repeated by +JOB (2021) is that scientific, astronomical approach:
Quote
+JOB:
It is worth mentioning that in 1997, the World Council of Churches held a consultation in order to establish a common date for Easter and recommended maintaining the Nicene norms (that Easter should fall on the Sunday following the first full moon of spring), to calculate the astronomical data (the spring equinox and the full moon) by the most accurate possible scientific means, using as the basis for reckoning the meridian of Jerusalem, the place of Christ’s death and resurrection.

Aleppo:
(e) The Council of Nicea also has an enduring lesson for Christians today in its willingness make use of contemporary science in calculating the date of Easter. While the council sought to advance the concrete unity of the churches, it did not itself undertake a detailed regulation of the Easter calculation. Instead it expected the churches to employ the most exact science of the day for calculating the necessary astronomical data (the March equinox and the full moon).

(b) to calculate the astronomical data (the vernal equinox and the full moon) by the most accurate possible scientific means,...

Those proposals, while basically sound, need to be explored further, especially in relation to the other phases, (1) and (2) above. The stated standard of using "the most accurate possible scientific means" requires dealing with the science, and that means attention to details and astronomical concepts. For instance, is giving the EDT occurrence as 11:33 sufficiently precise? Hours and minutes are given but what about seconds and hundredths of a second etc. Terms -- accurate, precise, error -- are used with a common, colloquial meaning and understanding that can be misleading. How is the venal equinox defined, determined, calculated? How has the statement of the rule for determining Passover/Pascha(Easter) changed and how true is that statement to the source, the scriptural texts?

To put yesterday's event into context, both the Gregorian and Julian calendars were designed so that the vernal equinox is intended to occur on its respective 21-March. The astronomical vernal equinox occurred:

20-March-2022 on the Gregorian calendar

07-March-2022 on the Julian calendar

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Just a heads up, no pun intended. Tomorrow is the second event for the reckoning of Pascha. If you look at the night sky, you will NOT see the moon; that is the important point, it's the astronomical new moon.

[Linked Image]
Image from April 2022 - Moon Phase Calendar [moongiant.com]
New Moon: Apr 1, 2022 at 9:24 am Moon Phases 2022 – Lunar Calendar for Nefat Yerushalayim, Jerusalem, Israel timeanddate [timeanddate.com]
New Moon: Apr 1, 2022 at 2:24 am EDT

Now, if the 20th c some-Orthodox-proposed / WCC method is applied, Pascha is the Sunday after the full moon that will occur on April 16, that is, Pascha is Sunday April 17. This is also Pascha for the Gregorian Paschalion. Julian Calendar Pascha is (on the civil calendar as shown) April 24th, the Sunday after the moon's last quarter -- not what the norm emanating from the Council of Nicaea specified.

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Could you explain again what is wrong with the "Reformed Julian Calendar" of those Orthodox Churches that use it? The Third Rome ideology has to do with the Moscow Patriarchate and there is a universal crisis within world Orthodoxy as a result of the Moscow patriarchate being state-controlled etc.

The "Orthodox Pascha" is really quite separate from any Third Rome issues (although in Moscow's case, you are doubtless correct). Orthodox tradition would argue in favour of the old Paschalion. Apart from the argument of "hey get with the program" which won't wash, what really is the argument against it?

And I, for one, am disillusioned with the Orthodox East as a whole so I'm more than open to the Western paschalion . . . and even Roman Catholicism.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Could you explain again what is wrong with the "Reformed Julian Calendar" of those Orthodox Churches that use it?
There is nothing wrong with the Revised Julian Calendar (RJC) itself; It is the same as the Gregorian/civil calendar until 28 February 2800. A problem in timing can occur when the RJC is used for fixed feasts but Pascha is computed base on the Julian calendar, and its faulty computus, and its date transposed to the RJC. Since they count days differently, sometimes they just don't mesh well. It is this mixed calendar approach that can present problems.

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Thank you, Reverend Father Deacon!

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Tony, could you please send me an email about this. jackfigel@verizon.net

Thanks!

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