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Dear Bob,

Unfortunately, what the Moscow "patriarch" did goes well beyond what you indicated. That individual and his clerical cronies have blessed and encouraged this war, working in tandem with Putin. Giving an icon to encourage the Russian commander?! the "patriarch" gave a sermon to Russian soldiers in the Cathedral of the Resurrection in which he told them "No defeats!" His surname puts the "G" in "KGB." And his promotion of "the Russian world" or "Russky Mir" (I understand that is a heretical concept within Orthodoxy) is something that enables the lies under which Putin (who is really an old-style communist who uses the Church to legitimate his policies) moves forward with his genocidal actions. Now his "men" attack so many civilians. Why don't they pick on soldiers with weapons like they have? Because they are suffering heavy losses and are now taking it out on defenceless civilians, women and children. Are these real men?! Are they "Orthodox Christians?" What are they? I heard an interview on the radio this morning with a fellow in the Ukrainian territorial defense forces whom I knew when I was at the legislature here. He worked in Kyiv and is now fighting the Russians. He called the Russian army a "band of terrorists" and he added that "We are going to fertilize our fields with their bodies..." I was shocked when I heard him say that - you just don't really know a person until a war breaks out . . .

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I think a universal issue is thinking that moving from one church to another will solve your problems. It wont. You will just find another set of problems to deal with. You may even find the same ones.

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Dear Charles,

In this case, I don't know if we can say people are going from one Church to another. From one JURISDICTION to another - yes. The faith is the same, but the primates are different. I personally don't see any substantive differences between the Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches (along with Anglo-Catholics). In the case of the UOC-MP, those eparchies that are rejecting the Moscow "primate" (I use the term in another sense . . .), are just seeking to break communion with him for having rejected the Gospel of Christ i.e. for his self-excommunication and betrayal along with the Russian World (heresy) that has served to enable Putin in his murderous war crimes.

Problems in the church will always exist, persist and transform into more complex ones in due time. But in this case it is simply a matter of trying to get away from something they thought was the Church and, for them, has turned out not to be the Church at all - but something other than.

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Another point that needs to be made here is that JUST because an eparchy of the UOC-MP stopped commemorating the patriarch of Moscow (of sorry memory) doesn't mean they still aren't in the UOC-MP or don't identify with it. They STILL do commemorate Metropolitan Onufrij - who himself commemorates the MP. At the same time, there are over a hundred parishes and more formerly of the UOC-MP that have formally joined the OCU and also those that have begun commemorating the Ecumenical Patriarch, with his blessing, as we know, without having formally joined the OCU as yet.

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i've read interviews of a number of former UOC-MP priests in the midst of the genocidal war that "Orthodox Russia" has unleashed on Ukraine. They have stopped commemorating the patriarch of Moscow because they feel, as one said, "He has nothing to do with the Gospel of Christ - quite the opposite, in fact."

They don't understand why the Moscow patriarch not only refuses to condemn Vladimir Putin's war crimes, but actually blesses them and the "Orthodox Christian soldiers" who carry out their cruel orders (as he did with an icon a few weeks ago).

They have also raised the achilles heel of Orthodoxy, as they say, where the union of church and state, as obtained in the Byzantine Empire, leads to the church blessing even the most heinous of crimes of an emperor (like that of Basil who ordered the blinding of 15,000 captured Bulgarians and there are iconic images of that "Christian emperor").

If this is so,then world Orthodoxy truly does have much to ponder in the months ahead as it, as is to be hoped, comes to reflect on how this tragedy of the Russian Orthodox patriarch blessing mass murder of civilians, rape of women and theft has come to pass. It is a major blight on Orthodoxy in general.

Sad and deeply depressing.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
. I personally don't see any substantive differences between the Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches (along with Anglo-Catholics).
I agree! That' what I think ,too...

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The UOC-MP has just declared independence from Moscow.

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Multos Annos! Monia Vuosia!!

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Originally Posted by Just a Pilgrim
The UOC-MP has just declared independence from Moscow.

I don't believe that statement is correct.

The statement that I saw here [risu.ua] seems as concerned with disputing the canonicity of the OCU as with distancing itself from the Moscow Partiarch.

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Christ is in our midst!!

Roman,

There seem to be different reports about the decisions of the UOC-MP Council of Bishops, depending on the source. I believe this one is from the MP. Other sources seem to take a different slant. The issue of chrism-making, however, is important. A Church that makes its own chrism is independent; one that receives it from another seems to be dependent.

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The issue of making its own Chrism was simply "raised." There is no indication that the UOC continues as anything but a part of the Moscow patriarchate. This was clearly a political move to try and stop the continuous loss of parishes to the OCU. Met. Onuphry and his synod simply said they "disagree" with patriarch Kirill (Gundayev) over his blessing for the genocidal war of Russia against Ukrainians.

But recently one of his Metropolitans in the Bucovina area had this to say by way of "thanking" patriarch Kirill:

"Your Holiness. I just wanted to formally thank you for your blessing. I thank you for blessing the destruction of our churches and monasteries, for blessing the murder of our priests and monastics, the murder of our children not to mention their parents. I thank you for blessing the destruction of our cities too. You, Sir, will have to answer for this before God. And don't try to make any excuses for yourself or your behaviour. You will answer for all this, for the smallest tear of a mother who lost her child and for the smallest grave in which a mother has buried her baby."

www.risu.ua [risu.ua] has an interactive map of Ukraine showing the movement of parishes of the UOC-MP (for some reason, they insist on calling themselves "Ukrainian . . .") to the Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

They also have the article about that Metropolitan plus a video of him speaking in Russian (so Kirill could understand).

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I, like others I am sure, am trying to make sense out of the statements of the recent council of the UCO Church. The preceding comments in this thread were very helpful and insightful. My own observations raise more questions than understandings. The wordings of the Council are encased in careful rhetoric.

There are several obvious and some "between the lines" sentiments that show through:
1. A general disappointment with The Mocow Patriarchate. 2. A judgemental stance against the actions of Patriarch Kyrill. 3. The veiled threat of seeking independance from Moscow. 4. A desire to identify as Ukrainian and not Russian. 5. An attempt to make a distinction, or reconciliation, between national loyalty and Orthodox unity. 6. The looming possibility of major change.

The one, clear and direct statement seems to be a no -confidence vote against the Patriarch.....an outright judgement against his policies. Considering the above comments
( from Orthodox Catholic) about the Bucovina criticisms, I was wondering.....Is there any indication of opposition among Patriarch Kyrills own ranks in Moscow? Additionally, are there examples of opposition to the MP from ROCOR?

Finally, we are led to believe that Putin does not tolerate criticism, let alone opposition. I was also wondering, Patriarch Kyrill can't possibly be a happy man considering the way the world, and elements of his own religion are condemning his actions. How does he handle insubordination?

Putin doesn't mystify me as much as Pat. Kyrill..... Even an ordinary person would feel embarrassment or mental anguish about the Bucovina type comments, lets alone a spiritual leader. But, who really knows the inside of a person.

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Dear Hutsul,

Patriarch Kiril (Gundayev) has been reconstructing Russian Orthodoxy along a militaristic paradigm. He openly gave his blessing to the Russian terrorist army to go on its merry genocidal way. He has told the Russian military "No defeats!"

What kind of a churchman says those kinds of things? He and putin will bring Russia down and for what? What about those thousands of Russian soldiers who have died already? What did they die for? And the millions of Ukrainian citizens who have been displaced, the thousands who have been killed, raped (women, children AND men - and this from an 'army' out to fight the West that wants to "impose gay paraes" on Russia . . .) and tortured!

These are satanic attacks and patriarch Kiril blesses them?? Refer to the words of that Metropolitan above . . .

The Orthodox Church of Ukraine under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople has received over 600 parishes of the UOC-MP in three months - in total, over 1,000.

And, no, the UOC-MP has NOT declared its separation from Moscow. It will only do so IF Moscow agrees to it!

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"Orthodox Catholic" said:
"The Orthodox Church of Ukraine under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople has received over 600 parishes of the UOC-MP in three months - in total, over 1,000."


I am happy for these parishes. Two years ago, I watched this segment of 60 Minuets concerning the Ecumentical Patriarch Bartholomew. Forgive me for posting a link that many members may have already visited, but here it is:



here is a spiritual leader deserving of my admiration and respect.

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Many years to His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople! May his flock in Ukraine continue to increase!!

Alex

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