The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
arekeon27, Wenura Ravindu, Leeno, San Nicolas, Skanderbeg
5,845 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 62 guests, and 19 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,167
Posts414,961
Members5,845
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 11
A
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 11
I've looked at the online copy of "Byzantine Daily Worship (Melkite)," where they have the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil The Great, and the Presanctified, and I have a copy of my parish's (Ukrainian Catholic) Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Comparing the two, the Ukrainian DL of SJC seems to leave a fair bit out, compared to BDW DL of SJC. Here are a few examples.. After the first antiphon, a little litany is left out, but is included in the melkite text. The second antiphon up till "only begotten son" is left out. Glory be to the father etc. is left out in the third antiphon up to the deacon's exclamation "Wisdom!"

The prayers for the catechumens are completely excluded (understandable, I guess). Between the first and second prayer for the faithful, a short litany is left out. The prayer for the sanctification of our life - aitesis is left out (grant this o lord litan before the offertory prayer/kiss of peace). Missing one "lord have mercy" before the priests second to final blessing.

Is this common among, at least in America, different Greek Catholic Churches to use more abridged/complete versions of the Divine Liturgy, and if so, which Greek Catholic church uses the most "complete," if you know what I mean.

I'm in the Ukrainian Archeparchy of Philadelphia, and my liturgy book is the "Translation of Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Hierarchy of the Ukrainian Catholic Synod - 1988)

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,668
Likes: 12
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,668
Likes: 12
I don't have the Ukrainian Catholic prayer book you are referencing, but it sounds like you are describing the standard abbreviations of the Divine Liturgy used by Ukrainian Catholics. The abbreviation of the Divine Liturgy is not new. The Greek Orthodox, for example, for many years did not take actual verses during the antiphons and then omitted the several litanies between the Gospel and the Cherubic Hymn. Ruthenians have their own versions of mandatory abbreviations.

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 11
A
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 11
Is there any reason for these abbreviations, or why they're mandatory? I'd hate to think its just a "finish in an hour" type of reason.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,668
Likes: 12
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,668
Likes: 12
There are probably more reasons than I am aware of. Time, however, is likely the main reason. There is great concern that the people will not participate in a service that is more than an hour long. Especially when they probably drive past a Roman Catholic parish with a 45 minute Mass that "counts".

My long time adage on the length of liturgy is: 'If the liturgy is celebrated and sung well, an hour is not very long at all; but, if it is not celebrated and sung well, 30 minutes can be an eternity."


1 member likes this: akemner
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 5
S
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 5
Question, is singing a Lenten hymn while the priest reads his long prayers during Sundays of Lent (St. Basil the Great Liturgy) considered an innovation?

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 622
Likes: 9
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 622
Likes: 9
What lenten hymn? Most traditions have longer settings of the responses to cover the time of the prayers of St Basil.

Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 5
S
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 5
A Lenten hymn from the choir hymnal, over the priest reading anaphora, the reason I ask is because it’s used to cover the silence and the Liturgy of St. Basil is hurried.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 622
Likes: 9
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 622
Likes: 9
Is it a particular hymn, or some random lenten hymn? There are normally long settings of the responses for this very situation. I dislike it when DL is hurried. It is saying to God, "You are a box to be checked off if and when we have time." When we stand before Christ in Judgment, what are we going to say to me, or rather what is He going to say to us? That said, we said the Typika psalms in their entirety, sang the Beatitudes with all the troparia, sang the long Basil melodies and Father said (most) of the prayers out loud. One hour, 25 minutes, with homily. What do we say to God when we cannot stand to be in Church an extra half hour five (or 10) times a year?

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 25
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 25
Quote
There are probably more reasons than I am aware of. Time, however, is likely the main reason. There is great concern that the people will not participate in a service that is more than an hour long.

Christ is in our midst!!

Taking the Admin's reply from above, I thought I'd add a tangent.

A friend gave me a copy of last year's Royal Hours from a Ukrainian Orthodox parish. They were abbreviated to be one hour long for that same reason.

By comparison, I had attended Royal Hours at a few Russian Orthodox (OCA) parishes while I was attending university and they last four and one half hours total. In these same parishes, Sunday DL lasted minimum one and a half hours.

Bob

Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 5
S
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 5
A Lenten hymn such as “beneath the cross” is that considered, “orthodox” but then again is any hymn part of any original Divine Liturgy?


Moderated by  Administrator, Father Anthony 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5