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More desperate attempts to save a Reformed Calendar Agenda which was exposed for its outright fraud.

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The following table for 2019 shows how absurd the Julian Paschalion is.

Astronomical full moon 2019: April 19
Gregorian 14 Nisan: April 18
Samaritan 14 Nisan: April 18
Rabbinic 14 Nisan: April 19
Julian 14 Nisan: April 23

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird
The following table for 2019 shows how absurd the Julian Paschalion is....
Right, even though, and also especially, since it's only one week off. This highlights the lunar error since only one of the two, 18-19 vs. 23 can be factual and, coming close together, can be verified in a one week time frame -- look up at the sky and you can see for yourself. When the solar error dominates, the equinox is missed, and the difference is around a month, it's possible that the moon phase could be correct (though of course it's not the "vernal" moon).

Old Calendar zealots have the Church, especially the Orthodox, in a bind with fears of schism. There are those right up to the present Pope who (I would hope they are poorly informed.) may think the best solution is to scrap the Paschalion/computus for a fixed Sunday, thereby abandoning the link to Scripture, tradition, the historical moment and the grand celestial and unique yearly event of the two great lights aligned with the first day of creation and the eighth day, the day of Resurrection: the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater for the sake of (I would say false) unity and practicality. The scientific, "full astronomical" approach has its inherent problems and it is more a possible face-saving device for the Orthodox via Milanković-sans-computus, and therein, though well-intentioned, its deficiency: it's a necessarily over-specified computational overkill that radically reinterprets the canon.

Given the computational power of even our personal computers, it would be interesting to redo the Gregorian reform using the abundant data available today, e.g. Jet Propulsion Laboratory Development Ephemeris [en.wikipedia.org]. One could produce a, for instance least-squares, error solution covering spans of years incrementally increasing to check the stability and wanted accuracy, using various leap year rules -- say the top three, Persian, Milanković, Gregorian -- or a floating one that readjusts after an accumulated error that exceeds 0.5 day. My hunch is that when all the trade-offs are taken into account, for a solar-lunar calendar with computus, the Gregorian reform (It probably could be tweaked a bit.) would be the choice.

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I think it was you, or some other Forum wit, who posted images of the Gregorian full moon and the Julian full moon. In any event, I'd enjoy seeing it again for I feel it illustrates perfectly, and rather humorously, the whole ridiculous conundrum.

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AS I recall it was Mockingbird but here is one look: Compare a full moon on APR 18-19 giving Pascha on the APR 21 versus the Julian full moon on APR 23 giving Pascha on APR 28.

[Linked Image]

While the full moon is understood as the resultant indicator and so used in the astronomical method, it is a departure from the primitive prescription of Scripture and as attributed to Nicaea. It is the new moon that is the determinator, and then mark the fourteenth day of the moon. This is practical for two reasons: It's more difficult to determine fullness and if missed the event is past whereas the new moon is on off-on observation for which there are then 14 days exactly provided to prepare for the feast. The computus was a required sophistication that allowed the extended preparation time needed by the 40 days Great Fast.

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird
The following table for 2019 shows how absurd the Julian Paschalion is.

Astronomical full moon 2019: April 19
Gregorian 14 Nisan: April 18
Samaritan 14 Nisan: April 18
Rabbinic 14 Nisan: April 19
Julian 14 Nisan: April 23
All these values agree to within a day except for the Julian value. This Astronomical full moon in April, however, is not the Astronomical vernal full moon which occurred (Jerusalem) 21-MAR-2019. This is an example where the modern scientific calculation is at odds with traditional methods. Except for the Julian, the traditional methods in this example are legitimate predictors, as is the astronomical, when each is evaluated according to its methodology and actual correspondence with sun and moon events.

This year, 2019, is also the one and only year where the Gregorian and astronomical disagree in the 25 example-years (see table) compared in the WCC-Aleppo document Towards a Common Date for Easter [oikoumene.org]. Entries in the right-most column are the 17 in 25 years where the Julian does not agree with the Astronomical and Gregorian.
[Linked Image] (source [en.wikipedia.org])

Of special note is 2013 where Julian Easter was 5-MAY missing not only the actual 31-MAR date based on the 27-MAR full moon, but also not getting the Sunday 21-APR-2013 date following the 19-APR-2013 full moon, thereby missing, by an additional 2 weeks, a second chance to get something right. This Julian approach that has lost all factual correspondence with nature and thus the Scriptural events of Passover and Passion, and the rule accepted as evolving from the first council of Nicaea, is the one being considered by Pope Francis since at least 2015. This Julian paschalion is to be used, I presume, with a fixed civil (i.e. Gregorian) calendar thus also ensuring the debacle encountered with the same approach using the Orthodox Revised Julian Calendar.

This " brilliant solution" [catholicworldreport.com] when realized permits the Orthodox "Historian Pavel Kuznekov" to conclude that "Catholics of the Holy Land changed directly over to our Orthodox Paschalia, returning to the tradition they had departed from in the sixteenth century—admitting by this that the main task in creating the Gregorian calendar is recognized as not having been satisfactorily completed." (link [orthochristian.com]).



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I did not find the news in English, only in Portuguese: https://www.vaticannews.va/pt/igrej...odoxa-unificacao-datas-natal-pascoa.html

Translation:

"The Orthodox Coptic Church, at least for the time being, will not take any decision on the proposal - supported by Patriarch Tawadros II - to find a single date for the great liturgical feasts of Christmas and Easter, currently celebrated on different days by various Churches and communities of the baptized throughout the world."

"Contrary to what was previously announced by Tawadros II himself, the last assembly of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, concluded in the past at the monastery of Anba Bishoy (Wadi el-Natrun region), did not address the issue."

"During a trip to Germany in May, Tawadros informed the press that members of the synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church in their imminent Assembly would pronounce on whether to allow the Coptic communities scattered in Western countries to celebrate the liturgical solemnity of Christmas on the 25th of December, in concomitance with the Christmas liturgies celebrated at that date by the great majority of the Churches and Christian communities present in the West. The statements of the patriarch received comments, even controversial, expressed mainly through social media."

"In view of the Assembly of the Holy Synod - reports the Egyptian media - the Coptic bishop Aghaton of the Maghagha prepared a dossier to document that the insistence on re-uniting the dates of celebration of the Christian holidays in the different Churches could cause divisions and contrasts also of order doctrine in the Coptic Orthodox Church."

"According to some of the positions presented in the dossier, the question of the dates for the celebration of Christian solemnities can not be dissociated from the study of the causes that caused the division and still prevent the full communion of Coptic Christians with those baptized from other ecclesial communities. The idea of uniting the dates of the solemn liturgical celebrations is therefore considered to be "untimely" before full doctrinal and sacramental communion with other Churches is reached."

"But according to some exponents of the Coptic hierarchy, now also the dates of the great feasts are part of the tradition followed by the Fathers themselves, and the Coptic Church is called above all to preserve what it received as an inheritance from its Fathers and their Saints."

"Even though, it is argued in the memo, some might see in the unification of the dates of the liturgical festivities an outward sign of unity, whereas in reality the authentic and complete doctrinal communion among the Churches has not yet been restored."

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Originally Posted by ajk
[quote=Mockingbird]This Julian approach that has lost all factual correspondence with nature and thus the Scriptural events of Passover and Passion, and the rule accepted as evolving from the first council of Nicaea, is the one being considered by Pope Francis since at least 2015. This Julian paschalion is to be used, I presume, with a fixed civil (i.e. Gregorian) calendar thus also ensuring the debacle encountered with the same approach using the Orthodox Revised Julian Calendar.

This " brilliant solution" [catholicworldreport.com] when realized permits the Orthodox "Historian Pavel Kuznekov" to conclude that "Catholics of the Holy Land changed directly over to our Orthodox Paschalia, returning to the tradition they had departed from in the sixteenth century—admitting by this that the main task in creating the Gregorian calendar is recognized as not having been satisfactorily completed." (link [orthochristian.com]).

"The Sacred Council would not object if the feast of Easter were assigned to a particular Sunday of the Gregorian Calendar, provided that those whom it may concern, especially the brethren who are not in communion with the Apostolic See, give their assent."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_..._19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Francis' concern to adopt a common date is not "new", at least since the Second Vatican Council. Now, I think that does not mean we have to adopt the Julian calendar date.

I posted above a news, everything indicates that the Coptic Church retreated in the dialogue, because the Copts were going towards the Gregorian calendar and this generated internal resistance to defend the "orthodoxy".

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Here it is

[Linked Image]

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This year's Passovers:

Astronomical full moon: April 16 2022
Rabbinic 14 Nisan: April 15 2022
Samaritan 14 Nisan: April 14 2022
Gregorian 14 Nisan: April 16 2022
Julian 14 Nisan: April 20 2022

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird
This year's Passovers:

Astronomical full moon: April 16 2022
Rabbinic 14 Nisan: April 15 2022
Samaritan 14 Nisan: April 14 2022
Gregorian 14 Nisan: April 16 2022
Julian 14 Nisan: April 20 2022

Each of these, except for the Astronomical, retain to varying degree the sense of the lunar month. In a concurrent thread, TOWARDS A COMMON DATE OF EASTER: REMAINING FAITHFUL TO NICAEA, I proffered that the recent (1920s to present) initiatives for achieving a common date for Pascha have been advanced by the Orthodox. These proposals, directly using astronomical data and not dependent on a calendar, i.e. the astronomical approach, are valid but a significant departure from the traditional reckoning methodology. The timeline that I have is that late 16th c. Orthodox synods anathematized the Gregorian reform and then the 20th c. has the Orthodox advancing an Orthodox (Milanković) "Revised Julian Calendar" and astronomical calculations by "Orthodox astronomers" instead of a traditional (lunar-month based) computus.

What, if anything, concerning the dating of Pascha happened within Orthodoxy in the 400+ years in between?

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Father Andrew Stephen Damick has posted a revised version of his refutation of the Zonaras Proviso:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/asd/...ssover-and-other-orthodox-urban-legends/

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Father Andrew Stephen Damick has posted a revised version of his refutation of the Zonaras Proviso:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/asd/...ssover-and-other-orthodox-urban-legends/
In the context of my previous remarks about Father's position in this thread: I am (again) sympathetic but don't understand, and likewise I understand but am not sympathetic. I respect obedience but, as the Akathist has it (χαῖρε, αὐλὴ λογικῶν προβάτων.), we are not just sheep but "rational sheep."

Regarding his argument that Passover is from the 14th to the 21st day of the moon, so " Passover is more than one day," I disagree based on my reading of the texts of scripture (see Re: TOWARDS A COMMON DATE OF EASTER: REMAINING FAITHFUL TO NICAEA), and not the interpretations and later (Rabbinic?) accommodations and conflation of Passover and Feast of Unleavens. So he effectively uses a (legitimate for Jews) conflated Passover-Unleavens 6-7 day time period to refute the Zonaras Proviso, which only obtains because of an accumulated residual (i.e. error) in the Julian Calendar -- presently 13 days, ~7 days at the time of Zonaras -- so that when that error increases with advancing centuries to the point where the 7 day "Passover" time period is itself superseded by the ever increasing error, the (erroneous) Zonaras Proviso will become applicable.

Putting it another way, though the Zonaras Proviso may be refuted now by "Passover is more than one day," the irony is that as the error becomes larger, the Proviso, if it were true, would eventually be applicable.(There is a significant drift in the Hebrew calendar too but it is less than the drift in the Julian.) Refuting peripherals of an inherently faulty premise in this way can appear to give it legitimacy.

The Nicaean Norm developed against various connections with Jewish Passover or its method of determination: The Jews often had it wrong; Christians could look to scripture directly and determine Pascha with a Christian interpretation. Christian and Jew have the common OT prototype but only Christians know the archetype:

RSV Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So, we Christian know best but should our date conflict with a Jewish determination of Passover, for whatever incorrect reason, then Pascha must be moved. If it is that important then why not skip the work and just have Pascha on the Sunday following Passover? But that's the position of the (so-called) Protopaschites, who were the ones whose views were most likely targeted at Nicaea. So the Zonaras Proviso is a veiled form of Protopaschitism (if that's even a word).

And it seems Zonaras had help and may be rehabilitated (some) The Zonaras Proviso [orthodoxwiki.org] and may have had a predecessor, Aristenus [orthodoxwiki.org].

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Father Andrew discusses two possible forms of the Zonaras Proviso. One form is the proposition that all seven (eight in the diaspora) days of the Rabbinic Jewish Feast of Unleavened Bread must be over before Julian Easter can occur. He refutes this by pointing out that Julian Easter often falls during the Rabbinic days of Unleavened Bread. The other form of the Zonaras Proviso that Father Andrew refutes is the proposition that only the first day of Rabbinic Unleavened Bread (the 15th of Nisan) must be over before Julian Easter can occur. He refutes this by pointing out that in some years, Julian Easter is a week after Gregorian Easter even when Gregorian Easter is after the 15th of Nisan in the Rabbinic calendar. So the difference between Julian and Gregorian Easter (he argues) must be due to some cause other than the Zonaras Proviso.

Strictly speaking, the Nicene decision only forbids using the Jewish calendar that was used in the 3rd and 4th centuries, which sometimes placed the Paschal full moon before the Spring equinox. The decision is silent on the modern-day Rabbinic calendar, which did not exist at the time of the Council. If the Orthodox were to adopt the Rabbinic calendar and set their Pascha to the Sunday of Unleavened Bread, as the traditionalists at Nicea did, Pascha would always be after Nisan 15 except in the rare cases where Nisan 15 falls on a Sunday (as it did in 1981).

But adopting the Rabbinic calendar would still contravene Nicea. The Alexandrian computists, following Josephus, insisted that the Paschal full moon must occur when the sun is in the zodiac sign of Aries--the first full moon on or after the equinox. Due to a slight solar drift in the Rabbinic calendar, it places the Paschal full moon on the second full moon after the equinox in three years out of every nineteen. These are years 3, 11, and 14 in the Western Christian cycle, respectively 19, 8, and 11 in the Jewish cycle. To be consistent with the Alexandrian computus that was in use at the time of Nicea, a computus must allow Easter sometimes to come before Rabbinic 15 Nisan.

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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Father Andrew Stephen Damick has posted a revised version of his refutation of the Zonaras Proviso:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/asd/...ssover-and-other-orthodox-urban-legends/
In the context of my previous remarks about Father's position in this thread: I am (again) sympathetic but don't understand, and likewise I understand but am not sympathetic. I respect obedience but, as the Akathist has it (χαῖρε, αὐλὴ λογικῶν προβάτων.), we are not just sheep but "rational sheep."
Those previous remarks were in this post Re: Calendar-Easter. While offering some critique both then and now, I commend Fr. Andrew for an informative article. His disclaimers at the end of the article are a vignette of the vox populorum response and issues facing TOWARDS A COMMON DATE OF EASTER: REMAINING FAITHFUL TO NICAEA.

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