The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
CelestineV, arekeon27, Wenura Ravindu, Leeno, San Nicolas
5,846 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (byzanTN), 100 guests, and 22 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,168
Posts414,969
Members5,846
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
An interesting icon I discovered today:

[Linked Image]

It's a variation of the icon of Our Lady of the Kiev Caves Monastery, which is usually depicted as such:
[Linked Image]

This particular variant was painted in 1688 by Hierodeacon Sergius of the Vysotsky Monastery in Serpukhov, Russia.

Instead of Saints Anthony and Theodosius standing on either side of the Theotokos and Child, they are shown kneeling before Them while the Christ Child hands to Saint Anthony a chotki.

Sources:
http://artinvestment.ru/news/exhibitions/20130415_Serpukhov.html

http://www.art-pro.ru/articles_GTG_Icona_05.php

Obviously, influenced by images of Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary in the Christian West:

[Linked Image]

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,272
Likes: 20
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,272
Likes: 20
Ah, Griego Amigo, you've made my day!!

I've never seen the icon of the Christ-Child giving the chotki to Sts Anthony and Theodosius!

The one below it is honoured on May 3rd as a miraculous icon, as you know.

Chi Rho Publishing has printed a beautiful, large edition of "The Prayer Rule of the Theotokos as prayed by Saint Seraphin of Sarov" by Anthony Stehlin.

Also, on the site "www.pravicon.com" are MANY Orthodox icons of the Theotokos where Western influence can be readily noted.

There are even statues of the Theotokos in some Orthodox monasteries in Russia - especially that of Our Lady of Loreto that can be seen in the collection and ALSO Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal (although it isn't called that, of course). There are also miraculous statues of the Pieta venerated in certain Russian Orthodox monasteries.

Don't you just love those Russians? smile (Most of them . . . grin )

There is also an icon on Mt Athos of the Theotokos giving prayer beads made up of Our Lady's Tears or Job's Tears to a monk. Those beads are said to have originated on Golgotha etc.

The Master Beadsman makes them . . .

All the best!

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 01/15/15 11:56 AM.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Chi Rho Publishing has printed a beautiful, large edition of "The Prayer Rule of the Theotokos as prayed by Saint Seraphin of Sarov" by Anthony Stehlin.
Thanks for letting me know. It's a beautiful looking book. [amazon.com]

Quote
Also, on the site "www.pravicon.com" are MANY Orthodox icons of the Theotokos where Western influence can be readily noted.
Yes, an excellent site.

Quote
There are even statues of the Theotokos in some Orthodox monasteries in Russia - especially that of Our Lady of Loreto that can be seen in the collection and ALSO Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal (although it isn't called that, of course). There are also miraculous statues of the Pieta venerated in certain Russian Orthodox monasteries.

Yes, that is true. Here is an example:
[Linked Image]

Quote
Don't you just love those Russians? smile (Most of them . . . grin )
Yes, I do! laugh

Quote
There is also an icon on Mt Athos of the Theotokos giving prayer beads made up of Our Lady's Tears or Job's Tears to a monk. Those beads are said to have originated on Golgotha etc.
Like these?:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I found this blog that has several pictures of the monks making the prayer beads. There is also a video at the end: http://agioritikesmnimes.blogspot.com/2012/01/494.html

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,272
Likes: 20
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,272
Likes: 20
Dear Griego Amigo,

Wow! Thank you for all of that!

Now I want to get a statue of Our Lady of Loretto for my icon corner . . . Do you know of any places that sell them at reasonable prices?

Why GOOGLE when I have you?!!! smile

The Master Beadsman made me a chotki of 100 Panaghia Tears, divided every ten. What a beautiful tradition that has such strong roots in the East!

Interestingly, I noticed on the video you present that the Greek tradition, as one can notice elsewhere, prefers the form of the Jesus Prayer that is: "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me."

In any event, lots to contemplate here!!

Please accept my deep spiritual bow!

Alex

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Wow! Thank you for all of that!
You're welcome.

Quote
Now I want to get a statue of Our Lady of Loretto for my icon corner . . . Do you know of any places that sell them at reasonable prices?

Here are two sites that I could find:

1) Sheehan's Church Goods [matthewfsheehan.net]

2) Demetz Patrick Woodcarvings [demetz-patrick.com]

Devotion to Our Lady of Loreto among Russians inspired the icon of Our Lady, Enlightener of Minds, also known as Our Lady, Increaser of Intelligence.
[Linked Image]
It is popular among students.

Here is video of Russian pilgrims praying before the image of Our Lady of Loreto: link. [youtube.com]

The photo of the Our Lady of Loreto statue in front of an iconostasis comes from a monastery of nuns in Russia. You can see more photos here:

Photo album 1 [tervenichi.ru]

Photo album 2 [tervenichi.ru]

Photo album 3 [tervenichi.ru]

Video. [tervenichi.ru]

Quote
Why GOOGLE when I have you?!!! smile

Ha, ha, ha!!! Others have said similar statements to me before. What can I say? I'm a resourceful type of guy. If I weren't serving the Church, I may have ended up being a detective. grin

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,272
Likes: 20
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,272
Likes: 20
This remins me of when my dentist, an Eastern Catholic, came to our place for a visit.

As per tradition, I kissed him three times on the cheeks when he arrived - much to his displeasure.

He retorted, "Alex, you are the only man who kisses me!"

To which I replied, "Andrew, the other guys don't know what they're missing . . ." grin

God bless you for everything sir!

Alex

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
Here are others icons that depict the Mother of God holding a chotki in Her hands:

1) Miraculous icon of the Mother of God, "Joy Of All Who Sorrow" [pravicon.com], which belonged to Tsarevna Natalia Alexeievna.
---Article about icon. [catalog.obitel-minsk.com]

2) Variant copy of above icon. [pravicon.com]

3) Miraculous icon of the Mother of God, "Praise of the Caves" [pravicon.com], enshrined at the Monastery of the Caves in Kyiv, Ukraine.
---Article about icon. [hram-nikola.kiev.ua]

4) Icon of the Mother of God, "More Honorable than Cherubim", More Glorious than Seraphim". [pravicon.com]

5) Variant copy of above icon. [pravicon.com]

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 26
Likes: 3
H
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 26
Likes: 3
Very interesting exchange of comments and images.

I am sure you are both aware that in icons above, God the Father appears over the Mother of God. He is recognizable as an older bearded figure whose halo is either a triangle or contains projecting triangles. Of couse, among Eastern icon purists, such as Constantine Cavarnos( d.2011), depictions of God the father are frowned upon, if not forbidden. He criticizes them as against theology and as a Western convention. Take that for what it's worth. I just find it interesting that these images are revered by all, even those in Russian Orthodoxy and the Royal Court. So much for the myth of purism.

Also, an interesting article put out by the University of Dayton contains theoretical ideas about the early medieval phenomenon of "The Black Virgin(Madonna)....statues and icons.

https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/b/black-madonnas-origin-history-controversy.php

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Hutsul
Also, an interesting article put out by the University of Dayton contains theoretical ideas about the early medieval phenomenon of "The Black Virgin(Madonna)....statues and icons.

https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/b/black-madonnas-origin-history-controversy.php

Thank you for the link.

I am reminded of the controversy regarding the cleaning of the image of Notre Dame du Pilier at Chartres Cathedral, which made the image go from Black Madonna to kewpie doll. Link. [vialucispress.wordpress.com]

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,207
Likes: 11
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,207
Likes: 11
Originally Posted by griego catolico
... which made the image go from Black Madonna to kewpie doll. Link. [vialucispress.wordpress.com]
Is it then restored to the original "kewpie doll" look or was the restoration done poorly?

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 26
Likes: 3
H
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 26
Likes: 3
Good question. I am looking forward to Griego Catolico's opinion here.

My belief is that the restoration was done as accurately as possible, using the research of many Art Historians and scholars. The fact that we think of it as a "Kewpie" look, is our perspective in the 21st century. To the medieval eye, untainted by mass produced baby dolls, it was probably seen as astonishingly beautiful and spiritually inspiring.

We are used to viewing ancient sculpture/architecture as raw and unpainted, simply because the paint has long since worn off. We are so used to it, that it has contributed to an aesthetic of "truth in materials"..........ie, if it is stone, it should look like stone. If it is wood, it should appear wood. This aesthetic was not always the case and only started changing, perhaps, with the Renaissance.

As far as cleaning off the aged patina, that's another issue. Do we want to see how it looked originally, or do we appreciate what is has become? Is it more important as original, or more important as it wears its age and history.

This question isn't limited to the artwork of our faith either. There are philosophical connections. For instance, if we had a chance to see exactly what some aspect of Christian history was really like -without any doubt- would we welcome it?
Or would we say , "no.....that's not what we thought, we don't like it, we would rather have what time has made it"............just a thought.

Last edited by Hutsul; 07/18/22 05:02 PM.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by griego catolico
... which made the image go from Black Madonna to kewpie doll. Link. [vialucispress.wordpress.com]
Is it then restored to the original "kewpie doll" look or was the restoration done poorly?

Originally Posted by Hutsul
Good question. I am looking forward to Griego Catolico's opinion here.

grin It was a "throw away" comment to end my post. It comes from Martin Filler's critique in his article, "A Scandalous Makeover at Chartres" in The New York Review :

Quote
Whenever and however Chartres’s Black Madonna acquired its mysterious patina — through oxidation or smoke from candles and incense — it was familiar as such to centuries of the faithful until its recent multicolored makeover, which has transformed the Mother of God into a simpering kewpie doll.

I am not opposed to the cleaning and restoration of churches and images, as long as the necessary research has been accomplished beforehand. If the restoration involves a significant alteration to an image venerated by the people, then I believe the impact it would have on them should be seriously considered.

Here are some examples of icons that have been restored:

Salus Populi Romani (before and after). [fsspx.news]
Video of the restoration. [youtube.com]
The end result is an icon that looks brighter and cleaner without substantial changes.

Miraculous icon of the Mother of God Chernivtsi (before and after) [sobor.cv.ua]
The face of the Mother of God had been repainted. The restoration involved bringing back how the face looked originally.

Miraculous icon of the Mother of God of Univ [m.day.kyiv.ua]
This is not a "before and after" comparison; these are two icons that came out from one. Restoration involved removing the top layer of repainting, transfering it to a new board and making a separate icon.

Miraculous "Gate" icon of the Mother of God of Smolensk [smolnarod.ru]
The image changed significantly following restoration.The restorers found six layers of repainting on the icon, more than 16 times the icon had been retouched. The riza could no be longer used since the head position of the Mother of God had changed.

Quote
As far as cleaning off the aged patina, that's another issue. Do we want to see how it looked originally, or do we appreciate what is has become? Is it more important as original, or more important as it wears its age and history.

There are some images, in my opinion, that could never be restored without causing scandal for the people.

Imagine if the patina from the icon of the Mother of God of Częstochowa were removed. Would the people of Poland be alright with an image that is no longer the Black Madonna?

Imagine if the retouches and additons that were made to the miraculous "not made by human hands" image of Our Lady of Guadalupe were removed. (Yes, it's hard to believe, but someone decided it'd be better to add a few things to the miraculous image. A crown was painted on Our Lady's head, but has since flaked off. The sun rays around Our Lady are flaking.)


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5