www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Grapple with theological concepts

I grapple with some theological concepts from both traditions: things like purgatory, plenary indulgence.

Sometimes people send me prophetic word like prayers/novenas....'if you pass it on, you and your loved ones will be spared hell.'

Please note, I fully UNDERSTAND the notion of purgatory, watched many tutorials, asked my parish priest who explained it well for me. What I grapple with is how can evil/bad people be found in purgatory? isn't this a cheap ticket to allow all bad christians to never reflect on their life and how they persecuted others and all the harm/hurt they did to others....nesting in the 'false hope' that they can make it to heaven via transit into purgatory or thru prayers of others for them?

Plenary/partial indulgence seems like sales gimmick to manipulate people....? Even when I learned what it means!

How can I make sense of things that do not seem to make any sense and a God that does not promote spiritual growth & integrity in our Christian life?

That whole system of thinking Purgatory is just simply a second chance is actually heretical and was if I am correct similar to what Origen taught which was a heresy thst stated even those in Hell will ultimately be released from it.

But this is all based on a heavily incorrect idea on the notion of Heaven and Hell. The Faith can be summed up into one question, "What do you want?" This is why we have free will to either choose God or to reject Him. He does not stop us, we are in control of our own eternity. Hell is the eternal refusal of God, hence why the notion of punishment, for one simply refuses God who is good, and the deprivation of for example in this case good and happiness, is sadness.

Purgatory is a place of purification. It is not a second chance. The only people who can go to Purgatory are those who are not in mortal sin, because by the very fact mortal sin is one's own choice to go to Hell. It would seem strange if a man chose and wanted to go to Hell by the fact of committing mortal sin if he somehow didn't go there. And it would seem strange if a man chose to go to Heaven and did not go there. By choosing Heaven or Hell I mean choosing to be with our God or choosing to go against Him, this is speaking in terms of what Heaven and Hell are the result of, a choice of the will, not simply locations you can just go despite your will. It is based entirely on the will.

Purgatory can be described as the rooting out of the temporal disorder caused by sin ONLY IF the person is not in the state of mortal sin.

The Church if I am correct grants every dying Catholic an automatic plenary indulgence, but what are the requirements of a plenary indulgence? It's chief requirement is the total detachment from ALL sin. Purgatory is for those who ultimately want to be with God and yet have slight attachments to those things which are against God, not for unrepentant people who do not wish to ever see God. God gives each person in this life the chance to choose Heaven or Hell and gives each of us enough time to do so, as it says in Genesis that God limited the age of people to 120 years, the reason being that even if they were given 120 or 1000 they would not change either in their ultimate goodness or their evil.

Indulgences are not a "sales gimmick" but simply an expression of the will. Say for example I commited calumny, I should pray that my effects of my calumny should be undone, isn't that fair? In that sense, that is the element of indulgences. Yet the Church with the power of binding and loosening grants people indulgences very easily, but the entire key requirement is, what do you will, do you have an attachment to sin or not, do you want to commit even small sins?

Purgatory can be compared to prison, while Hell can be compared to execution. One is put in prison since one will reform, one is executed because one will never reform and does not want to reform. As far as I know, after reading the articles of the Union of Brest where one article was "we will not debate about Purgatory but submit to the Church", the Church has just taught there is a place of purification after life for the souls of those not in mortal sin which the people can be helped by the prayers of others or indulgences due to the Church's power of binding and loosening. A lot of elements about the nature of Purgatory in a lot of people's minds could be just mere speculation, falsehoods, or exaggerations.

God cannot change the will of a person, and Purgatory is the place for an individual to root out their faults. In a sense prayers and indulgences help release a person of the punishment they incurred as a result of detracting from the glory of God and probably as well to give that person grace to repent and change their little faults. But like I said this paragraph is speculation, all we do know is God is good.

It is superstition to believe that simply saying this novena of this prayer will prevent one from going to Hell. Prayers and novenas are a means to an end, not an end. The end is the choice of the will as to what one truly wants, that is Heaven.

Also, read: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/indulgences-at-the-point-of-death-4696

In this case, basically speaking even if a Catholic has no priest one can still gain a plenary indulgence as long as one had regularly prayed during one's life. But even still, I'm sure the Church has never defined that if one did not get an indulgence before death one can only go to Purgatory. I would believe that our God can truly see what a person wills and if one has that condition of a total non attachment to sin would most likely go instantly to Heaven.

Correction, when I wrote, "as a result of detracting from the glory of God and probably as well to give that person grace to repent and change their little faults." That was the part I was referring as speculation, not that our God cannot change our wills. We are unsure on the precise nature of Purgatory and it seems that indulgences help give grace and to "shorten our time" there. To put it simply, Purgatory is not a waiting room for all who even despite their best efforts not to, will go to Heaven, Purgatory is a place of purification for the souls of those who died without mortal sin on their souls but yet are lacking freedom from presumably small faults or certainly attachments from sin.

I think the words on Purgatory from Pope Benedict XVI's Encyclical Spe Salvi are about as authoritative and Roman as one can get. They are beautiful and profound, to boot. I post once again: Pope Benedict XVI on Purgatory [aleteia.org]

Thank you both Giovanni1 and Utroque for your comprehensive explanations and links to some puzzling issues in the church.

I always knew that God knows what He is doing and His ways always make perfect sense.

I think Purgatory since it's mystery it falls prey to people's speculation and wishful thinking. I absolutely agree, only good people in state of grace will be found in purgatory. Although the Orthodox church does not mention it at all. Love the analogies you used for purgatory: prison vs hell: execution room.

Absolutely Giovanni! While man looks at the outside; God looks at the HEART of the person and He knows who is the REAL DEAL and who is pretending and will reward us accordingly. Thus we cannot play games with Him! He is the Almighty Omnipotent, Omniscience God.

The Orthodox Church does not believe in Purgatory as a place, and certainly not in the Medieval descriptions of it as punishment, but rather we believe in PURGATION of all that is not like Christ. Every one of us, even the best of us, will have something within that needs purging so that we can become like Christ. In Orthodoxy, this is called THEOSIS, and it is a life long process of removing from ourselves that which is not like Christ - our passions, our sins, our faults, etc. After death, we enter into the very presence of Christ and the FIRE of HIS LOVE is what finalizes the purgation and makes us fit to be partakers of His love and in union with Him.

Depending upon the degree of passions and the tenacity with which we hold to our sins, this will be painful. The more sin, the more pain. Think of it like surgery - the deeper the wounds, the more painful the recovery will be. This is the difference between East and West - medicine (painful at times) to heal, vs punishment until expiated.

If you study the saints' life, their life was filled with bad/evil past. I strongly believe that people who suffer the most, have big ministry and God wants to use them abundantly.

Once again than you Edward H Irish Ruthenian. Our Christian faith is SO rich, and filled with so much....that sometimes I feel we fail to appreciate the treasure we have AND thanks to you Edward, I learned something NEW today.....PURGATION!