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Hutsul, thanks for your comments. I reply here not to challenge you but to clarify and further develop what I wrote.

Yes, unity is fundamental and foundational. That is why I object to it being used as the catch-all to justify comfortable opinions that need not even consider facts. Is the calendar liturgical theology or is it not? Should Christianity, the liturgical churches, abandon the calendar, the typicon? Who is advocating or guilty of this Calendar "deification"? Did Nicaea mandate not just unity but uniformity in observing Pascha? What is the basis for achieving such uniformity if not the Scriptures and tradition?

Is not that "great example of polemics" in my post an example for achieving unity above all else? What I wrote is not (just) parody but sadly quite factual. If I mischaracterized anyone, however, let me know because I was not insinuating but stating. And what was my judgement (I didn't think I had given one)?

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Dear AJK,

Beginning with your last comment - prayer for one's national armed forces is NOT the moral equivalent, if you are suggesting it is, of the Russian Orthodox Patriarch and his bishops blessing the invasion and consequent rape and slaughter of the people of a country that the Moscow patriarchate itself has always deemed to be a "brother nation!"

If you think that it is, that is your prerogative. we live in democracies and not in Russia that passes laws determining what words one can or cannot use without stiff penalties being meted out.

No one, not the least myself, is arguing that the Christian calendar is about theology etc. I thought what we were talking about was the Julian vs Gregorian calendar and adopting one over the other. That is all. it is not about abrogating any festal days or anything like that.

If you are saying the Gregorian calendar adoption by the UGCC is political - I agree wth you,, it is. Yes, Ukraine wants to get away from the "Orthodox Christianity of Russia" (which is more of an ideology of the Russian Federation and therefore has little to do wth the Gospel), The UGCC has also been having to deal with two calendars for a long time. There are genuine pastoral issues that have evolved from both the dual calendar issue as well as with the weakening of liturgical celebrations on the Julian calendar but that is grist for another thread. I'm not saying that the calendar is ONLY about politics, but it is, and always has been, involved with social, cultural, political and pastoral issues - not only theology.

You can take this up with our Hierarchs and our Primate. I'm sure they would be thrilled to hear from you . . .

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Beginning with your last comment...
That the church does and should bless persons (here soldiers) and not automatically and necessarily their policies and practices.


Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
No one, not the least myself, is arguing that the Christian calendar is about theology etc.
I am emphatically so arguing: That, regarding the calendar, its issues and use, it is time for the dog -- theology -- to finally start wagging the tail -- history, culture, society, pastoral sensitivity, politics, etc. -- and not the other way around.

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Yes, with respect to blessing soldiers, the Church does do that.

The Moscow Patriarchate is on record as having gone well beyond a simple blessing, however. It is directly tied in with the Russian Federation and its imperialist "Russky Mir" Russian World ideology - a perspective Orthodox theologians have called "heretical" to boot.

I was simply commenting on your comment that appeared you were making a moral equivalency between the first and the second points. And I said there is no moral equivalency and that if you were indeed saying there was - and only you know for sure, Father Deacon, then you were wrong - as I'm sure you would agree.

I made a typo in the second pjoint and meant to say that no one is saying the calendar is NOT about theology.

But theology isn't all there is to the specific issue (there can and should be a separate thread on the theology of the calendar) of WHICH calenndar to use - Julian or Gregorian.

That issue is less about theology and in this case, it is about politics, culture etc.

One could also have a thread on the benefits of bringing social science insights into pastoral curricula. The UGCC Primate and his bishops are having some very good on the job training in that regard - under Russian rocket fire to boot.

I just don't like your combative attitude and your quickness to jump on things that aren't there. Cheers.

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Quote
WHICH calendar to use - Julian or Gregorian?

Isn't the UGCC's answer - the Reformed Julian Calendar? If so, would a moderator please change this thread's title accordingly.

I'm somewhat baffled by the timing of the announcement. Just two months ago, according to a RISU article [risu.ua], His Beatitude Svyatoslav said that war is not the time to discuss calendar issues and that any changes should be made in conjunction with the other Ukrainian Churches.

It seems to me, then, that the synod was moved by the results of some poll (that dealt with the calendar and which was conducted during a war).

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Christ is in our midst!!

Roman,

I will change the title, if that's what is needed. But first let's find out exactly what liturgical calendar is being implemented.

Bob
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My understanding is that the UGCC as of September 1, 2023 will be using the Gregorian Calendar for fixed feasts, and the Reformed Julian Calendar only for the Paschalion. I see no need to change the title of the thread.

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I've been reading calendar-related post for some time now, but apparently not enough (I thought that "Reformed Julian" meant old-style Paschalion & new-style fixed feasts).
Doesn't "Gregorian Calendar" imply new-style Paschalion?

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The Gegorian and Julian calendars each have their own Paschalion which is intimately linked with the respective calendar.
The Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars are the same from 1 March 1600 through 28 February 2800.
The Revised Julian calendar does not have a traditional Paschalion but relies on detailed astronomical calculations of the full moon to determine Pascha.

I'd expect that using the Gregorian calendar would imply using its Paschalion but that need not be the case.

The Gregorian Paschalion predicts Pascha in accord with the biblical directives for Passover and nature, and is in harmony with fixed feasts of both the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars.

The Julian Paschalion most often does not predict Pascha in accord with the biblical directives for Passover and nature, but it is in harmony with respect to its fixed feasts.

The Revised Julian calendar is more Gregorian than Julian. The Gregorian calendar is more Julian in its approach and methodology than is the Revised Julian calendar compared to the Julian.

Imposing the Julian Paschalion on either the Gregorian or Revised Julian calendars produces a misalignment or mismatch between the calendars' fixed feasts and the movable feasts tied to Pascha, and on that basis might properly be termed the Confused Julian calendar.

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Thank you, ajk, for all of your posts on the calendar topic.
I've read a number of items on this topic over the years, but I'm still somewhat perplexed.
For example, I don't see what the purpose of the Revised Julian calendar is.
As you have mentioned, for the next 780 years or so, it's the same as the Gregorian calendar.
For someone hearing the term "RJC" for the first time, would it not be logical to (incorrectly) conclude "Julian Paschalion + Gregorian fixed feasts"?

With regards to the UGCC and the announcement, does it apply to the entire Church, or only to Ukraine?
I understand that there are still some parishes in the Toronto eparchy that want to keep the old Julian calendar.
Last I heard, in the Toronto eparchy, it was up to each parish to decide which calendar to use, both for fixed and movable feasts.

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Originally Posted by Roman
Thank you, ajk, for your post on the calendar topic.
I've read a number of items on this topic over the years, but I'm still somewhat perplexed.
For example, I don't see what the purpose of the Revised Julian calendar is.
It seems to me that, for the next 500 years or so, it's the same as the Gregorian calendar.
Right (and you are welcome), the same until 28 February 2800, on purpose I'd say, tactfully delaying the issue while producing an Orthodox (acceptable?) calendar for now.

Originally Posted by Roman
Last I heard, in the Toronto eparchy, it was up to each parish to decide which calendar to use, both for fixed and movable feasts.
I sympathize with bishops not wanting to foment schism but it's been 441 years already. It's about time to tell the people the truth and demand they follow it. There's a laudable100 year effort of the EP to achieve a unified Pascha observance for all the Churches -- TOWARDS A COMMON DATE OF EASTER: REMAINING FAITHFUL TO NICAEA -- and the Church of Toronto can't achieve it within its own self.

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The Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Toronto and Eastern Canada . . .

My parish of St Nicholas has seen the circulation of a questionnaire where the respondent (anyone who is a member in good standing in the parish) is asked which calendar he or she would like: Gregorian, Reformed Julian or Julian.

Results will be tabulated in a few weeks but I've heard a majority of returns so far indicate support for the reformer Julian calendar ie. the same calendar the UGCC in Ukraine is moving to on September 1st of this year and which the Orthodox Church in Ukraine (Ecumenical Patriarchate) has already allowed its parishes to adopt but which will make a church-wide decision on during their Sobor in May.

And yes, there was a parish meeting on Sunday last where this matter came up and some individuals expressed strong opposition to the adoption of anything but the Julian calendar. It seemed to me that they were ill-informed about the nature of the directives given by our Patriarch Svyatoslav and his Synod. These clearly said that if a parish finds it cannot move to the Reformed Julian calendar (the term "New Julian Calendar" is what is preferred in the Ukrainian), then, with the blessing and permission of their Eparch, such parishes may remain on the Julian Calendar until September 1, 2025 when the New Julian calendar will become normative. During that period of time, the old calendar parishes are to receive education about the calendar issue in preparation for September 1, 2025. That is how I understand our patriarch's directives.

The questionnaire, in my personal view, does not provide the necessary context and so comes across as a "take your pick" with respect to the calendar issue when it isn't. It is more an issue of "adopt it now or adopt it after you've had a chance to get educated as to why you will be adopting it."

For example, there are those who actually think they are celebrating Christmas on January 7th. Where is there a liturgical service book that indicates that date? They indicate the feast of the Nativity of OLGS Jesus Christ on . . . December 25th!

And because the year of our Lord 2025 marks the 1700th anniversary of the First Ecumenical Council, Rome and Constantinople will, to mark the occasion in an irenical and ecumenical spirit, announce a common date for Pascha, or a common calculation for the date of Pascha from then on. Thus there will only be ONE calendar even though there will continue to be churches, like the ROC who will continue with the Julian calendar.

Yes, Russia's war of aggression on Ukraine has to do with the adoption of the new calendar. It is more than just "politics" as Western commentators are wont to say, but that is another issue.

The UGCC has been internally divided over the calendar issue for far too long. As our patriarch has said to all Ukrainian Catholics, "Listen to your Mother Church!"

My family and friends intend to - with or without the parish we dearly love.

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I do not want to seem to be the perennial nay-sayer and there are pressing existential matters -- people are dying; we are fighting for our life -- but on this calendar issue (and others) the Churches need to embrace the inconvenient truth. That means they also must understand the issues. Are they understood?

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
The Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Toronto and Eastern Canada . . .

My parish of St Nicholas has seen the circulation of a questionnaire where the respondent (anyone who is a member in good standing in the parish) is asked which calendar he or she would like: Gregorian, Reformed Julian or Julian.
How well informed are the voters? For the EP-WCC initiative for 2025, TOWARDS A COMMON DATE OF EASTER: REMAINING FAITHFUL TO NICAEA, Met. Job proposes that
Quote
… the celebration of the 1700th anniversary of the council of Nicaea in 2025 would be a good occasion to educate Christians on the necessity of a calendar reform and of a common date of Pascha in order to remain truly faithful to the decisions of the first ecumenical council.
 [my emphasis]
"like" does not automatically equate with understanding.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Results will be tabulated in a few weeks but I've heard a majority of returns so far indicate support for the reformer Julian calendar ie. the same calendar the UGCC in Ukraine is moving to on September 1st of this year and which the Orthodox Church in Ukraine (Ecumenical Patriarchate) has already allowed its parishes to adopt but which will make a church-wide decision on during their Sobor in May.
The Revised Julian calendar [en.wikipedia.org] (RJC) presently, as a functional calendar, has no practical value or necessity. It is an example of over-compensated accuracy and precision. Consider a watch or clock: How often does the second hand (if it even has one) need to be consulted? Now imagine a clock in your kitchen that also counts the hundredth or thousandth second.

Even worse, the RJC becomes a diversion from the real issue, the Paschalion. Adopting the RJC with the Julian Pachalion is inviting criticism for reform, and liturgical confusion. Adopting the RJC is (until Feb. 28, 2800) by design just using the Gregorian calendar with a more acceptable (to Orthodox) designation.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
The questionnaire, in my personal view, does not provide the necessary context and so comes across as a "take your pick" with respect to the calendar issue when it isn't. It is more an issue of "adopt it now or adopt it after you've had a chance to get educated as to why you will be adopting it."
Worth repeating, so I did.

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I read Orthodox Catholic's last post with interest.

However, as I'm wrestling with the terminology as provided by ajk, my understanding of the post is that the parishioners were given 3 choices as to calendars that will set the dates of the fixed feasts but that the post omitted saying anything about the parishioners choices, if any, regarding movable feasts (Orthodox Catholic did not mention if any choices were given the parishioners as to Paschalion).

Orthodox Catholic: was that your intent, or do you understand some or all of "Gregorian", "Julian", "Revised Julian" to imply a particular Paschalion?

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Bless, Reverend Father Deacon and Doctor!

I agree with you completely, of course, and wish you could be up here to deliver a lecture on this topic to the parish!

Failing that, is there a particular piece that you have written by way of explanatory notes that, with your permission, I could copy and distribute?

If you'd rather not get involved, that is perfectly understandable!

Alex

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