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Originally Posted by Hutsul
 I suspect the Pope's many statements concerning clericalism fuels a lot of his critics.

Ouch! They certainly do.

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Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Hutsul
 I suspect the Pope's many statements concerning clericalism fuels a lot of his critics.

Ouch! They certainly do.
What specifically? Lay involvement? Who is opposed to the Pope's concerns about clericalism? Doctrinal and moral issues seem to me to be the concern of the Pope's critics.

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Father Deacon, these are fair questions.

Really who am I to say, I am not in any position to judge, but I do care about our Church, and I think Pope Francis gets a bum rap sometimes. However, I will offer my thoughts as best as I can express them and I will be frank, but probably not as specific as you would like.

My observation on those whose seem to oppose the Holy Father, or are dissatisfied with him, in three categories:

# 1 among the laity. 

   In general, these are Catholics who consider themselves to be traditionalists. They are members of the laity that want, or rather, need, clear cut rules. They are threatened by any hint of change, or re- interpretation of anything. They go to Mass regularly, mostly to fulfill their obligation. These are the fraction of the faithful who long for the past and an imagined "order," which they lament as stolen by Vatican II. To them, the Gospels are the thing before the homily.

#2  among the clergy.

   There have to be those in Church hierarchy who must be offended by the Pope's comments about clericalism. Publically, they voice an opinion that the Pope is endangering Church doctrine and tradition. Inwardly, they view the Pope's comments on clericalism as an attempt to make them feel that they hold the institution of the Church in higher regard than living the Gospel.....and are faced with the choice of voicing dissent or feeling guilt. So they dissent, and long for a new status- quo Shepherd.

#3  among theologians.

    There are those theologians who would have made excellent museum curators. They are endlessly engaged in clarifying the official stance of doctrine, even though those doctrines are products of the medieval world and have dwindling relevance to reality. They are completely lost when they feel the Pope wants to give doctrine a facelift -to make it relevant- and cry heresy. They are lost because they are curators, not creative thinkers.

Last edited by Hutsul; 11/24/23 02:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Hutsul
 I suspect the Pope's many statements concerning clericalism fuels a lot of his critics.

Ouch! They certainly do.
What specifically? Lay involvement? Who is opposed to the Pope's concerns about clericalism? Doctrinal and moral issues seem to me to be the concern of the Pope's critics.

To be specific: I am quite certain that much of the negativity towards the pontificate of Pope Francis has been driven by the likes of Raymond Arroyo and the vast EWTN network for which he works. In addition this network owns and controls the National Catholic Register and the Catholic News Agency. I despise the kind of cynical journalism that Arroyo and his colleagues (lay and cleric) represent which so undermines the very Church which he and his network claim to so ardently defend. Of course the secular media picks up this stuff and spreads it hither and yon. I find it all quite poisonous and would like to see it purged from this forum.

What is more, His Holiness, Pope Francis has been such a strong and faithful supporter of the eastern tradition and has done so much to spread good will among our Orthodox brethren.

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Originally Posted by Hutsul
Father Deacon, these are fair questions.

Really who am I to say, I am not in any position to judge, but I do care about our Church, and I think Pope Francis gets a bum rap sometimes. However, I will offer my thoughts as best as I can express them and I will be frank, but probably not as specific as you would like.

My observation on those whose seem to oppose the Holy Father, or are dissatisfied with him, in three categories:

# 1 among the laity. 

   In general, these are Catholics who consider themselves to be traditionalists. They are members of the laity that want, or rather, need, clear cut rules. They are threatened by any hint of change, or re- interpretation of anything. They go to Mass regularly, mostly to fulfill their obligation. These are the fraction of the faithful who long for the past and an imagined "order," which they lament as stolen by Vatican II. To them, the Gospels are the thing before the homily.

#2  among the clergy.

   There have to be those in Church hierarchy who must be offended by the Pope's comments about clericalism. Publically, they voice an opinion that the Pope is endangering Church doctrine and tradition. Inwardly, they view the Pope's comments on clericalism as an attempt to make them feel that they hold the institution of the Church in higher regard than living the Gospel.....and are faced with the choice of voicing dissent or feeling guilt. So they dissent, and long for a new status- quo Shepherd.

#3  among theologians.

    There are those theologians who would have made excellent museum curators. They are endlessly engaged in clarifying the official stance of doctrine, even though those doctrines are products of the medieval world and have dwindling relevance to reality. They are completely lost when they feel the Pope wants to give doctrine a facelift -to make it relevant- and cry heresy. They are lost because they are curators, not creative thinkers.
Harsh ... very harsh ... too harsh.

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Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Hutsul
 I suspect the Pope's many statements concerning clericalism fuels a lot of his critics.

Ouch! They certainly do.
What specifically? Lay involvement? Who is opposed to the Pope's concerns about clericalism? Doctrinal and moral issues seem to me to be the concern of the Pope's critics.

To be specific: I am quite certain that much of the negativity towards the pontificate of Pope Francis has been driven by the likes of Raymond Arroyo and the vast EWTN network for which he works. In addition this network owns and controls the National Catholic Register and the Catholic News Agency. I despise the kind of cynical journalism that Arroyo and his colleagues (lay and cleric) represent which so undermines the very Church which he and his network claim to so ardently defend. Of course the secular media picks up this stuff and spreads it hither and yon. I find it all quite poisonous and would like to see it purged from this forum.

What is more, His Holiness, Pope Francis has been such a strong and faithful supporter of the eastern tradition and has done so much to spread good will among our Orthodox brethren.
OK, sometimes Pope Francis gets a bad rap. Look at the statement and question. What is the connection with clericalism? I repeat: "Who is opposed to the Pope's concerns about clericalism? Doctrinal and moral issues seem to me to be the concern of the Pope's critics."

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Originally Posted by ajk
Look at the statement and question. What is the connection with clericalism? I repeat: "Who is opposed to the Pope's concerns about clericalism? Doctrinal and moral issues seem to me to be the concern of the Pope's critics."

The "clericalists", of course. They know who they are, and I think they seethe at Papa Francesco's pastoral approach to nearly everything he says and does; and are quick to quible at his unnuanced theology. But, does it rise to the level of "undermining the Deposit of Faith"? Please. It's time for all in the Church to rally around this humble and holy Bishop of Rome in what could be the final years of his life. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone."

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( Hutsul quote) I suspect the Pope's many statements concerning clericalism fuels a lot of his critics.

( ajk quote)Look at the statement and question. What is the connection with clericalism? I repeat: "Who is opposed to the Pope's concerns about clericalism? Doctrinal and moral issues seem to me to be the concern of the Pope's critics."

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I am looking at the statement and question.......the statement does not say anyone is opposed to clericalism. How could anyone be opposed, the Pope is correct, and his assertions undeniable.

The statement implies that the validity of the Pope's claims make many uneasy, insulted, shameful, and maybe a bit vengeful.........which they take out as criticism of the Pope in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by ajk
Look at the statement and question. What is the connection with clericalism? I repeat: "Who is opposed to the Pope's concerns about clericalism? Doctrinal and moral issues seem to me to be the concern of the Pope's critics."

The "clericalists", of course. They know who they are, and I think they seethe at Papa Francesco's pastoral approach to nearly everything he says and does; and are quick to quible at his unnuanced theology. But, does it rise to the level of "undermining the Deposit of Faith"? Please. It's time for all in the Church to rally around this humble and holy Bishop of Rome in what could be the final years of his life. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone."

'The "clericalists", of course. They know who they are,...'

Of course. " They know who they are...," but you don't or wouldn't or can't name them.

Originally Posted by Hutsul
Originally Posted by Hutsul
I suspect the Pope's many statements concerning clericalism fuels a lot of his critics.

I am looking at the statement and question.......the statement does not say anyone is opposed to clericalism. How could anyone be opposed, the Pope is correct, and his assertions undeniable.

The statement implies that the validity of the Pope's claims make many uneasy, insulted, shameful, and maybe a bit vengeful.........which they take out as criticism of the Pope in other ways.

" ....the statement does not say anyone is opposed to clericalism. How could anyone be opposed,..."

So no one is opposed to clericalism? Including the Pope?

"... the validity of the Pope's claims make many uneasy, insulted, shameful, and maybe a bit vengeful...." Are these "claims" of the Pope about clericalism?

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Though about the recent Synod, but relevant to the topic of this thread, I recommend to all the wisdom of Bishop Robert Barron of the Diocese of Winona-Rochester in Minnesota: My Experience of the Synod [wordonfire.org]

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Originally Posted by Utroque
... quick to quible at his unnuanced theology. But, does it rise to the level of "undermining the Deposit of Faith"? Please.
That is the question.

Originally Posted by Utroque
unnuanced theology
Well put; I shall quote you. [To be clear, read my comment at face value and not as being snarky.]

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Originally Posted by Hutsul
Now it's my turn ...

Question # 2 is:    Please clarify what you mean by "accomplished tyrant".

                   You see, I am familiar with the dialogues of Plato too....lol

Nothing so classical or academic as Plato. An impression -- I realize this is very subjective but my impression -- is that as Pope Francis expresses himself, and is characterized, and even lionized, as the accommodating, tolerant, inclusive, benevolent father ... but all that rather selectively. For me the case of being a clerical tyrant has a much lower threshold because my expectations are much higher of those in Orders, especially those with inherent or delegated God-given authority.

But you deserve a concrete example. It is the case of Bishop Strickland. This is not about whether one agrees or disagrees with Bishop Strickland. This has to do with the authority of the Pope as the Supreme Lawgiver in relation to the law that he gives and how he applies it and changes it at will. See Strickland’s removal was against canon law [newdailycompass.com].

A law specifying due process is good and that as such the due process should not be abrogated; that such due process is not only procedural but a matter of justice, of righteousness; it embodies a moral imperative. The argument I reject as simplistic and incorrect theology is that the Pope as "supreme" or "ultimate" or etc. is, therefore, to be understood as absolute or above the law; see Are there Any Limitations on the Power of the Pope? [canonlawmadeeasy.com].

Last edited by ajk; 11/27/23 12:08 PM. Reason: added stuff
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Father Deacon,

Sorry for my mess up here. I hastily posted this statement before editing.

Xxxxxxxxxxxx.xx

" ....the statement does not say anyone is opposed to clericalism. How could anyone be opposed,..."

( your quote)So no one is opposed to clericalism? Including the Pope?

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My statement was supposed to read:

".......the statement does not say anyone is opposed to the Pope's denunciation of clericalism, how could anyone be opposed, the Pope is correct, and his assertions undeniable".

Sorry for the confusion.........nothing like skipping a word or two to make the thought appear ridiculous, lol

At any rate, this conversation is very interesting. I needed to fix the above right away. Thanks for the time out.

Last edited by Hutsul; 11/27/23 07:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Utroque
... quick to quible at his unnuanced theology. But, does it rise to the level of "undermining the Deposit of Faith"? Please.
That is the question.

Originally Posted by Utroque
unnuanced theology
Well put; I shall quote you. [To be clear, read my comment at face value and not as being snarky.]

The question is, of course, rhetorical; and my answer is an emphatic, “No, it does not”. In Pope Francis we have the former Archbishop of Buenos Aires who took the bus to visit his flock; no surprise that there are those who wince at his style, not to mention the name he chose as pope and his “unnuanced theology”.

I admire Bishop Barron and his “Word on Fire” ministry very much. His reflections on the Roman Synod were quite perceptive and hardly discordant. He knows that the Synod is a work in progress and seems confident that it will play out well in God’s good time. As good Saint Pope John Paul II was wont to say in quoting Jesus, “Be not afraid”. I am not, and I trust Pope Francis, whatever his time left on earth, will lead the Church to good things.

I trust also that there is much more behind the judgments regarding Bishops Torres and Strickland than meet the eye; or the press, if you will. I do not know about Bishop Torres, but Bishop Strickland was asked to tender his resignation and he did not. Though it seems he has not done so, perhaps he has a right of appeal. It seems to me that the Bishop of Rome would not have acted outside the Canons unless he had a very good reason in doing so for the good of the Church; unless, of course, he is a little more Jesuitical than we might imagine. Quote me if you will.

Last edited by Utroque; 11/29/23 03:52 PM. Reason: spelling
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Well, I think I am going to wind up my final comments with regard to this discussion by referring back to the original opening. 

My opinion, is this...

Pope Francis is a reformer. Like all reformers, he is going to get static from those who feel threatened by his efforts. He upsets the tables of the temple and calls out hypocrisies, much like the Lord he serves. The status - quo does not like that. No matter what the Pope does, they are going to nit- pick him at every turn. 

Those with any kind of power or influence use conservative Catholic media- podcasts and such- to carry their message to the laity. The message of distrust of the Pope is clothed first and foremost in emotional issues like same- sex blessings, abortion, and women clergy. Those that hammer away at the message know the average Catholic is easily persuaded by, and fearful of, these highly charged issues. (They also know this brings great ratings.) Many in the laity  believe the presentations and are unwittingly enlisted against the Pope, but out of fear.  

This type of tactic, this kind of narrative, rooted in emotion and fear, is a page right out of ultra- conservative, worldly politics.........a world, by the way, of which Bishop Strickland is very familiar. It should not be the way a Church discusses issues, it is the essence of modern, reactionary politics.

And so, we are led to accept that the opposition to the Pope is based on moral issues. All along though, the majority of the laity become a pawn in the power struggle that is taking place between the princes of the Church and the reformer. (Ironically, one of the reformers' goals is to make the laity's voice more important.)

It makes no matter that Pope Francis wants to continue the reform of the Church, nor his emphasis on social justice. It makes no matter that clericalism was a main component of the abuse scandals, and the Pope wants it cast out, once and for all. Nor does it matter that the Pope is encouraging greater dialog on issues, that ignored now, will resurface down the road with greater complications. It does not matter that he points out that many of the princes of the Church live in luxury, seemingly unaware that millions of third world Catholics are living in poverty. None of this matters.

I defend Pope Francis, and I remind myself that St. Francis was no theologian, just a Saint.

Last edited by Hutsul; 11/29/23 10:56 PM.
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