www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Polish and Ukrainian bishops on same-sex blessings

The Coptic Orthodox Holy Synod reacted to Fiducia supplicans by suspending its theological dialogue with the Catholic Church in March 2024. The synod, led by Pope Tawadros II, condemned the blessing of same-sex relationships as "unacceptable," considering it a blessing for sin.

Key points of the synod's reaction:
1. Suspension of dialogue: The Holy Synod voted to suspend the theological dialogue with the Catholic Church, which had been ongoing for 20 years.
2. Condemnation of same-sex blessings: The synod issued a statement affirming its rejection of all forms of homosexual relationships and declared that any blessing of such a relationship, "whatever its type," is a "blessing for sin".
3. Rejection of cultural justification: The statement explicitly rejected the use of cultural arguments to justify same-sex relations, stating that such a view damages humanity.
4. Theological reasoning: The Coptic Church's position is based on its interpretation of the Holy Bible, emphasizing that God created man and woman for marriage and that all sexual practices outside of this framework are considered "sexual perversion".
5. Consultation with other churches: Before announcing the suspension, the Coptic Church consulted with other Oriental Orthodox churches.
6. Subsequent Vatican outreach: In May 2024, Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernández, head of the Vatican's Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, traveled to Cairo to meet with Pope Tawadros II to address the fallout. During the meeting, Cardinal Fernández reportedly emphasized that Fiducia supplicans did not alter the Catholic Church's fundamental doctrine on marriage.

It doesn't look like these relations are going to get any better, any time soon. : /

Christ is in our midst!!

Paloma,

Welcome to the forum. We hope your time with us is spiritually enriching.

Bob
Moderator

Theophan,

Have you or anyone else, consumed by the topic of same sex blessings, ever " googled" information on the percentage of gay priests in the Roman Catholic Church? It is a real eye opener, to say the least. Because of the veiled nature of this group, figures vary from study to study. The numbers are obscured by the closet door. However, every study concludes that the percentage is substantially higher than the regular population. Numbers concerning gay clerics at the Vatican are even more mind- blowing. Don't believe me, do some "googling."

One report on the subject shockingly adds:

"The notion that many Catholic priests are quietly gay is not new. In the 2000 book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," Rev. Donald B. Cozzens suggested that the priesthood was increasingly becoming a gay profession. Cozzens estimated that as much as 58 percent of priests were gay, and that percentages were even higher for younger priests. His numbers matched previous estimates by sociologists who put the numbers of gay priests between 10 and 60 percent." ( U.S. News and World (https://www.usnews.com/topics/author/elizabeth-flock)

Now, my question to you is simply this- how can the Roman Catholic Church throw stones from a glass house? If this is not hypocrisy, what is? Do you think that Pope Francis ( memory eternal) did not wrestle with this problem? Do you not think that this will be one of Pope Leo's greatest challenges? And finally, are gay priests worthy of a blessing? Tough questions, right? But they must be asked if the Church is to rise above this appearance of hypocrisy....yes?

No, I do not condone same- sex relationships or unions. I am too traditional- too old- too anchored in the orthodox ways. But neither can I condone the exclusion of blessings on some people while pretending that all the " Blessers" posess the higher moral ground. And guess what.... I bet Pope Francis felt that way too.....and one should hope, Pope Leo will too.

With all due respect to its contributors, this topic seems to be one of those " go- to ", emotionally charged subjects, that easily pushes forward-minded Catholics into a defensive posture. (I.E., one wants to defend gays rights and their need for blessings too, while not appearing to condone their lifestyle) It is a go- to, a clutch topic for conservatives, much like reverting to the issue of crime when the economy is bad.

Well, this topic is not that easy, cut and dry- not that black or white- as "Trads" try to portray. I hope my questions illustrate that.

The above citation's link was copied incorrectly....sorry. Here is the correct https:

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...-empirical-fact-that-many-clergy-are-gay

Sorry to sidetrack birthday greetings. Happy Birthday to administrator, Alice....

Christ is in our midst!!

Hutsul,

I'm very much aware of this statistic about Catholic clergy. I suspect that is why the 4 seminarians from Altoona-Johnstown quit together at the end of the 2022-23 academic year and no one wants to talk about why. There is a very good book that I bought years ago entitled "Goodbye Good Men" that described in great detail the problem in the clergy. It's interesting that I was told when I inquired about the seminary in the 1960s that being homosexual was supposed to be a canonical impediment to ordination. Guess more in theory than practice.

Theophan, thank you for your honest and thoughtful observations. Truthfully, I am very reluctant to bring such things up for fear of scandlizing those listening in to the Forum, although it is out there and accessible. It just seems to me that the Church must address internal issues first, so as to not appear phoney or using a double standard.

Christ is in our midst!!

Hutsul,

My interest in this topic and the fallout from Fiducia is not focused on our brethren in the alphabet group. It goes beyond that. The last post is more important to me. The Apostolic Churches, including the Catholic Church, have always preached a consistent message on morality, especially sexual morality. The drift under Pope Francis seems to deviate from this consistent message: see Amoris and not Fiducia. This damages the chances of our recovering full communion with communities we have been estranged from for centuries. See the Coptic reaction above. The damage may never be able to be undone.

Most mainline Protestant groups and the Anglicans have already gone down this path and are hemorrhaging members. After all, if you stand for nothing more than the surrounding secular culture, who needs you?

We are all in need of mercy and, more importantly, repentance. Fiducia seems to say that this last is not necessary. That, to me, is dangerous for our witness and our souls.

Christ is in our midst!!

I just found this article from The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. I share it because it relates to this ongoing discussion. It was written by Bill Donohue, the President of The Catholic League. His academic background was as a professor of sociology.



I find it interesting that the African bishops have been given permission not to teach anything like this while the German Church is completely opposite and defying Catholic Church teaching.

Hi Bob,

Happy Birthday! (At least the forum says yours is today.)

Thank you for sharing. I hadn't realized the German bishops were this far into foolishness. May God bring an effective course-correction to the German church and all local churches who stray into error--and strengthen and support the bishops and faithful who stay true to the orthodox faith.

Best,
M

P.S. anyone looking for the original article (same as posted by Bob) can find it here: https://www.catholicleague.org/german-bishops-say-sex-is-not-binary/

Christ is in our midst!!

M,

Thanks for the birthday greeting. Yes, today I hit 75.

Happy 75 Bob!

Well, ok......Before I am tempted to join the chorus and sing condemation of the German Catholic Bishops, I thought I might just ask why these Bishops are taking the positions they have taken. After all, they are learned in theology and surely not just setting out to sabbatage their own Church. They didn't just wake up one morning and say to eachother, " how can we best cause trouble?"

So, I started by simply asking ....#1.....why many German Bishops are taking controversial, provocative stances.

Next, having noticed in my readings that many Bishops felt the need to morally address a growing and, what they see as an alarming, resurgence of extremism in German politics, I asked ......#2....

These answers are basically AI type answers, but still represent an objective, concise way to begin...
************

Inquiry #1
German Catholic bishops are calling for reforms, primarily driven by the clergy sexual abuse scandals and declining church membership, to modernize the Church by allowing women deacons, blessing same-sex unions, ordaining married priests, and increasing lay participation, though these progressive proposals conflict with traditional Vatican doctrine, leading to tensions and warnings of a potential schism.
Key Reasons for Reform:
Sexual Abuse Crisis: The core impetus was to address clerical abuse by examining power structures and failures within the Church, leading to broader calls for structural changes.
Decline in Membership: Record numbers of Germans are leaving the Church, prompting bishops to seek ways to make Catholicism more relevant and inclusive to stem losses and regain trust.
Modernization: Bishops want to update Church practices to align with contemporary societal values, addressing issues like gender equality and LGBTQ+ inclusion.
Specific Reform Proposals (Synodal Path):
Women's Roles: Allowing women to be ordained as deacons and serve in more leadership positions.
Clerical Celibacy: Reconsidering mandatory celibacy for priests, allowing them to marry.
LGBTQ+ Inclusion: Blessing same-sex couples and ending discrimination against LGBTQ+ employees in Church institutions.
Lay Participation: Increasing involvement of laypeople in church decision-making, including electing bishops.
​************************
Inquiry #2
German Catholic bishops have actively voiced strong opposition to right-wing extremist politics, particularly parties like the AfD (Alternative for Germany) and other xenophobic groups, deeming their ideologies incompatible with Christian and democratic values, emphasizing human dignity, solidarity, and anti-discrimination principles. They've condemned anti-immigrant, anti-Semitic, and anti-democratic sentiments often associated with these parties, urging Catholics to align their political choices with Church teaching.
Key Actions & Statements:
Condemnation of Far-Right: Catholic leaders in Germany, including bishops, have publicly stated that ideologies promoting xenophobia, nationalism, and anti-immigrant stances are contrary to their faith.
Focus on Human Dignity: They stress that Christian ethics demand a commitment to the common good, human dignity, and welcoming the stranger, principles often violated by far-right rhetoric.
Warning Against Parties: Bishops have warned against radical parties like the AfD, whose rising support concerns the Church, urging followers to consider the moral implications of supporting such groups.
In essence, German Catholic bishops see a clear conflict between the core tenets of their faith and the platforms of right-wing extremist political movements, actively rejecting their ideology.
****************
So, what can we make of this? Whether their positions are right or wrong, the German Bishops are struggling with many issues here. It is easy to condemn them, especially by comparing their situation to other countries and their Bishops. But let us keep in mind that some of those other countries do not face the modern issues of Germany, mostly because their congregations have little say in their political fate.

Christ is in our midst!!

Hutsul,

OTOH, the Church is not called to conform to the world. She is called to teach the same thing in-season and out. She is called to be countercultural. Many of the issues you raise that would make the Church more appealing to the world would sever her link to the Faith once delivered.

Another consideration is that for communion to exist, the Church must be teaching the same thing and taking the same stances all over the world. The current situation where we have the whole African continent being exempted from a papal document while other areas are abusing it cannot stand. The Church needs to speak with one voice.

Another problem is that the Germans have been doing intercommunion with the Protestant churches in their country. We don't practice open communion. Communion has many layers and one--beyond our meeting with Christ--is that we agree on all points of doctrine without equivocation. If that were the case, there would be no German Protestant churches--we would all be one. There are implications beyond that. If the German Lutherans were in communion with the Catholic Church, so would a host of other ecclesial communities that they share communion with today: Lutherans in the United States who share with the Anglicans, United Methodists, and others.

As far as modernizing the Church, I remember talking to an Anglican priest half a century ago when the first women were ordained in the United States--before anywhere else in their communion. He remarked that they had women ordained but no women priests. It split their Church. That's why we have an Anglican Ordinariate today.

I also remember remarks made after the Vatican Council about the direction the Church seemed to be going. The comment was that in the future there would be those who kept the Faith and those who would not. And on the surface one might not be able to tell the difference.

You are not wrong, Hutsul. Germany is dealing with a lot of problems, I must know since I live in said country. But the situation we have is not uncommon in Europe, every country is dealing with right wing extremism and scandals of all kind. Yet, for some reason, you won't see these extreme cases in any other country.

And that is precisely because this isn't new. I still remember my religions teacher first talking about when gay marriage was finally made legal, and how most Archbishops, bishops and even priest showed their support for it, how his priest companions finally "came out". Catholics in Germany have always inched to be closer to their evangelical fellows, following their footsteps of liberalism, so they may get their big audience back which they were losing to evangelicals since people felt more comfortable with Churches that conformed more to the world.

The Church though needn't to let the secular world in, more it should fight from within. Yet the Bishops have seen fit to instead let the modern world influence them since they are scared to let recent history of fascism repeat itself. They are letting the world win and this shouldn't be excused with our current political situations, the Bishops as spiritual fathers should know better, they should be more careful.

Christ is in our midst!!

The question that haunts me when these discussions come up is this. Are we here to pack the pews and be like everyone else? Or are we here to learn, live, and pass the Fatih once delivered regardless of the consequences?

We have faithful witnesses in our Easter Catholic and Orthodox brethren who have lived under hostile regimes for many centuries and who have preserved the Faith once delivered despite the persecution. The Coptic Church, the Armenian Church, the Syriac Church, the Church of the East, The Greek Church, the Antochian Church, the Russian Church--all have lived with active persecution and thrived.

As for our bishops, currently, in whatever Western country, is it all about the money and the census totals? Pope St. John Paul II once remarked that he would prefer to preside over a much smaller Church that was firmly committed. That's cause for thought. The Russian Church--closer to our age--was said to be purified by the fire of persecution after the October Revolution. Thoees who are willing to put their lives on the line for Christ always come to the fore. Are we?