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ajk Offline
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Where are we at when a "protesting Pentecostal" sees the truth that evades some Catholic bishops?

A Reflection on Fiducia Supplicans [danieltomberlin.net]
Quote
The pastoral intent of Fiducia Supplicans is to offer grace that affects reconciliation. The pastoral failure of the document is that it fails to acknowledge the necessity of repentance. The authors have not provided clarity on Church teaching, rather they have offered a document filled with implied and explicit contradictions. The document’s stated intent is to avoid confusion and scandal. It [sic] this regard, it has utterly failed.

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Christ is Born!!

ajk,

This has been my argument since the "about face" on the issue of same-sex and adulterous relationships has move to the front in the Church. Pope Francis claims he is opening the Church up while I have argued that the Church has always been open to all.

The difference is that I have argued that we are all call to Christ by repentance--this being the most important thing in all this. Metanoia comes up. We are called to a constant conversion of life; we all examine our lives to see how we are doing or not doing; we have our priests to shine a light on us in the Mystery of Confession where he acts in the Person of Christ and is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The difference here is that people in irregular relationships want "in" without repentance. They want their relationships to be declared regular like the secular culture says they are.

In fact, I would further argue that the Holy Spirit is the One not mentioned--or truly mentioned--in this document. The Holy Spirit cannot be involved in confusion, being the Spirit of Truth. He has consistently revealed the truth of the basis of our humanity and its sexual component from Leviticus to St. Paul and through the constant teaching of the Apostolic Churches, even in their division from one another: they have all retained the truth taught from the earliest times.

I've also argued that this document misses one very important point beyond those already mentioned. That is the eternal point. St. Paul spells it out for us in 1Cor 6:9. There is no eternity in the kingdom for a number of lifestyles that were common in his time and which continue today. It seems to me that encouraging these irregular lifestyles is not an act of love or of mercy when the eternal consequences are so graphically spelled out.

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Originally Posted by theophan
St. Paul spells it out for us in 1Cor 6:9. There is no eternity in the kingdom for a number of lifestyles that were common in his time and which continue today. It seems to me that encouraging these irregular lifestyles is not an act of love or of mercy when the eternal consequences are so graphically spelled out.
If there is no stopping it, I recommend to those following Fiducia Supplicans, as a reading prior to blessing, (I read it to the Church in my homily for Meatfare, 2021) Romans 1:18-2:1:

Quote
RSV Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.

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Fiducia supplicans: Between a rock and a hard place [catholicworldreport.com]:
Quote
Two developments—both entirely foreseeable, one so easily avoidable as to be in essence an unforced error—are making the already improbable management of the Fiducia supplicans fiasco almost entirely impossible.

The first is the reported influx of requests for papal blessings on parchment sheets for same-sex couples. ... when they find themselves having to insist that something they’ve said or written is clear, the reason behind the need for such insistence is often that it isn’t.
...
The really ironic thing about this situation is that the Vatican system has a guy who is supposed to point this stuff out to the pope before he does things like this, so that things like this don’t happen.

The problem these days is that the guy happens to be Victor Manuel Cardinal Fernandez, architect of the very scheme that has put the pope in the bind.

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Originally Posted by theophan
Christ is Born!!

J Michael,

It's a question one might ask if this applies to the Ruthenian bishops. The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has stated emphatically that it does not apply to his sui juris Church and also suggested that it does not apply to any Eastern Catholic Church. He cited the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches.

Meanwhile, Pope Benedict's secretary has been summoned for a private audience with Pope Francis after he publicly stated that Pope Benedict would never have made the sort of statement that this teaching makes. We'll see if he is silenced or gets the Strickland treatment.

This saga goes on day to day.

I don't think either Pope Francis or his new doctrinal chief know what the function of the Holy See is. Years ago when he said "Who am I to judge?" it struck me that I knew the answer to that even he didn't. He's the man responsible for keeping the Deposit of the Faith from innovations that contradict what has been taught in all ages and all places. The Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith is supposed to be the place that evaluates any innovations to see if they are in line with that same Deposit. But these two seem to have turned that upside down and persecuted al those who are calling them out over it.

Please correct me now if I am wrong, but my understanding of being "in communion with Rome" does not allow for any sort of Lone Ranger mentality regarding the Catholic faith. The pope gives orders and you obey. End of discussion.

Tell me why this is wrong?

Thank you.

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Edward H (quote):
."..................We'll see if he is silenced or gets the Strickland treatment."


It seems not all Catholics view the " Strickland treatment" in the same way:

Pope Backed by Thousands of Christians Over Bishop Strickland Removal

https://www.newsweek.com/pope-backed-thousands-christians-strickland-removal-petition-1843472

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Originally Posted by Hutsul
Edward H (quote):
."..................We'll see if he is silenced or gets the Strickland treatment."


It seems not all Catholics view the " Strickland treatment" in the same way:

Pope Backed by Thousands of Christians Over Bishop Strickland Removal

https://www.newsweek.com/pope-backed-thousands-christians-strickland-removal-petition-1843472

Who are these Christians? Following the links I arrived at:

Faithful America [faithfulamerica.org]

[Linked Image]

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Don't really know who they are.
It's not them that that's super important to the article, or issue at hand really. The Newsweek article is about Bishop Strickland and a different view of this polarizing hero. The facts it contain point to a Bishop that ( in the terms of Pope Francis) is allowing ideology to guide, if not replace, theology. It portrays a Bishop who seems to be overly concerned with extreme right- wing politics (reactionary politics)., let alone other issues which remain confidential to the papal investigators. It portrays a Bishop very eager to be in the secular limelight, fond of controversy, and a sower of disunity.

The bill- board sized smoke screen is a nice diversionary touch though........lol

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Quote
"..................We'll see if he is silenced or gets the Strickland treatment."

Christ is Born!!

Hutsul,

That's my statement. Don't blame Edward H for that one.

Bob

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OK, I stand corrected for mis- assigning the quote. Sorry, Edward H.
I really wasn't " blaming" anyway. I was merely trying to paint the phrase in a different way- that some think the treatment justifiable........

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Christ is Born!!

ajk asks

Quote
Who are these Christians?

From the website of "Faithful America" we read

Quote
Faithful America is the largest online community of Christians putting faith into action for social justice. Our members -- Catholic, Protestant, and more

So we see that we have a group which poses as part of the diocese of Tyler, TX, and who have some reason to demand the removal of the bishop thereof. In reality, none of these people or their organization has any business sticking their noses into this diocese or its business or the actions of its bishop. In addition, when I read further, their self-description reads like the typical Leftist organization that is against the teachings of the Catholic Church to begin with so their criticisms ought to be ignored.

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Christ is Born!!

Quote
Please correct me now if I am wrong, but my understanding of being "in communion with Rome" does not allow for any sort of Lone Ranger mentality regarding the Catholic faith. The pope gives orders and you obey. End of discussion.

Tell me why this is wrong?

Thank you.

Edward H,

I found an answer to your question from St. Robert Bellarmine--my patron saint--and a 16th century Jesuit. Please give me a couple days to copy it out and post it with appropriate citation.

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New story today on MSM


Quote
A Lexington, Kentucky, Catholic Church has been blowing its own horn after giving a blessing to a same-sex couple, insisting it is only doing what Pope Francis wants.

"History was made Sunday at Historic Saint Paul Catholic Church. This same-sex couple, civilly married for 22 years, asked for a blessing which Fr Richard freely offered according to the guidelines in Fiducia Supplicans,” the church posted on Facebook.

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A Vatican press release, however, stated that the doctrine referenced reflects the fact that “the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex.”

The church later issued a Facebook post pushing back against any critics, such as journalist and editor Michael Matt, who objected in a post on X.
“This is not the private blessing for individuals that some would argue is the intended target of the new Vatican document. This is a ‘married’ lesbian couple getting a public blessing in church,” he posted.

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Originally Posted by Edward H
Originally Posted by theophan
Christ is Born!!

J Michael,

It's a question one might ask if this applies to the Ruthenian bishops. The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has stated emphatically that it does not apply to his sui juris Church and also suggested that it does not apply to any Eastern Catholic Church. He cited the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches.

Meanwhile, Pope Benedict's secretary has been summoned for a private audience with Pope Francis after he publicly stated that Pope Benedict would never have made the sort of statement that this teaching makes. We'll see if he is silenced or gets the Strickland treatment.

This saga goes on day to day.

I don't think either Pope Francis or his new doctrinal chief know what the function of the Holy See is. Years ago when he said "Who am I to judge?" it struck me that I knew the answer to that even he didn't. He's the man responsible for keeping the Deposit of the Faith from innovations that contradict what has been taught in all ages and all places. The Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith is supposed to be the place that evaluates any innovations to see if they are in line with that same Deposit. But these two seem to have turned that upside down and persecuted al those who are calling them out over it.

Please correct me now if I am wrong, but my understanding of being "in communion with Rome" does not allow for any sort of Lone Ranger mentality regarding the Catholic faith. The pope gives orders and you obey. End of discussion.

Tell me why this is wrong?

Thank you.

In spite of appearances to the contrary, especially with reference to Pope Francis, the Church is a monarchy, with Christ as King, and the pope as His vicar. It is not a dictatorship--though sometimes the two-monarchy and dictatorship-are indistinguishable. The pope does not say "Jump!" and we all ask, "How high?", regardless of the circumstances. If something does not apply or is outside of Eastern Catholic Canon Law, it seems to me that, well...it just does not apply and therefore is irrelevant...for Eastern Catholics. Being in communion with Rome does not mean that we have to adopt a hive mentality. I hope and pray, anyway.

Remember...the pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. I'm pretty sure Francis has not done so in this case. But, maybe I'm wrong...

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Originally Posted by Hutsul
Don't really know who they are.
It's not them that that's super important to the article, or issue at hand really. The Newsweek article is about Bishop Strickland and a different view of this polarizing hero. The facts it contain point to a Bishop that ( in the terms of Pope Francis) is allowing ideology to guide, if not replace, theology. It portrays a Bishop who seems to be overly concerned with extreme right- wing politics (reactionary politics)., let alone other issues which remain confidential to the papal investigators. It portrays a Bishop very eager to be in the secular limelight, fond of controversy, and a sower of disunity.

The bill- board sized smoke screen is a nice diversionary touch though........lol

With just a couple minor word changes to your post, Hutsul, one might get the impression you, or the article in question, were referring to Pope Francis smile.

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