www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pope Leo clarifies appropriate and excessive Marian titles

Pope Leo on Marian titles [vaticannews.va]

Thank you for sharing Michael!

Personally, I am extremely happy that the Vatican has clarified this. Being a covert from Protestantism, these titles and their origins often stemming from private revelation were a massive stumbling block for me when coming into the Church. At the time it even made me reconsider Catholicism and going the Eastern Orthodox Church route. But after careful discernment and prayer I ended up humbling myself and found myself continuing the Byzantine Catholic route until I joined the Church. It became clear to me that the person who was teaching these kinds of things at the Bible study I went to was just very Latinized and zealous about private revelation.

I already knew that some of these titles weren’t found in our Easter tradition, so it’s great to see them being cracked down in general. Of course, there is always a concern of dumbing things down to encourage ecumenism, but I don’t believe this is a case of that. These are titles that not only deter converts from Protestantism, but are confusing for the faithful in general. I had recently been stumbling over some of the very things the document addresses so it definitely feels like a relief and some sort of vindication for my concerns. Of course I say that not to boast, but because I was genuinely concerned.

I’m curious to see others perspectives on it though!

God bless you all!

Humility leads to Holy Orthodoxy. Pride is for one man to declare himself as a supreme authority over all bishops and churches and even over all secular rulers of the world, as the latin church dogmatically/authoritatively teaches. The arrogance it takes to dethrone Christ as head of the Church and replace him with a sinful mortal man is absurd. Yet that is what you choose to be in communion with. God help you.

Thank you for your prayers, I also will pray for you.

Re: the clarifications, these seem appropriate and productive.

cndncowboy02 quote: "I’m curious to see others perspectives on it though!"

I share your feelings on the link provided and agree wholeheartedly with your analysis. You touched upon a very sensitive aspect of this when you addressed Protestant reactions. To be sure, Marian devotion is a real stumbling block to a lot of Protestants and, without doubt, was a contributing factor of the Reformation.

I read an Art History commentary once that talked about the Virgin Mary's increased role in European Art ( including music and poetry) as result of the Crusades. The premise was that increased devotion to her was a result of exposure to ideas brought back from the East. Likewise it, developed simultaneously with the Medieval ideal of the "pure maiden" and chivalry....whatever the case, the Medieval era in Europe saw an explosion of churches being built and dedicated to " Our Lady" and most containing relics related to her ( bought back from the East?)

But.........back to the topic at hand.....it re-kindled my interest and I did a basic search for " titles of the Virgin Mary". Here is a generic link that touches on the topic. It contains a lot of info and a lot of titles......even some Marian titles of Islam!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary,_mother_of_Jesus

The bottom line for me is- I agree with stance of Pope Leo and the Vatican on this issue. There does not seem to be a reason for further ambiguity or controversy here.

cndcowboy02, I see that you are a new member, welcome!

While the Theotokos is held in very high regard in Orthodox Churches (consider the Platyera Icon adorning the apse above the Altar in nearly every Church) "Redemptrix" or "Coredemptrix" are not part of our vocabulary or hymnody.

Had the Roman Church normalized or worse, still, dogmatized those titles it would have driven a deeper wedge into the Great Schism.

I too am thankful for the Papal declaration.

Since the Vatican has clarified Marian titles, I've seen so many discussions and disagreements, mainly from traditional Catholics. So I want to clarify that the dogma behind said Marian titles still stays the same. What Pope Leo is clarifying here is the titles themselves so our doctrine can actually be understood. The explained doctrine behind Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix does not change.

And, personally, I believe it's fine that the Vatican is clarifying these titles. While I don't "appreciate" that there is appeasing to mainly Protestants, who simply don't care to learn doctrine behind these Marian titles, I also think it's better to clarify before even more doctrines are used against the Catholic Church. God bless!

I think what Pope Leo has said is basically what many of us knew all along. It had been muddled over the years by private revelations and excessive sentimentality. This has nothing to do with appeasing the Protestants although it could have some effect on that.

Christ is in our midst!!

cndncowboy02

Welcome to the forum. We hope your time with us is spiritually enriching.

Bob
Moderator

Ah, "Holy Orthodoxy." Wasn't strong enough to resist Islam. Wasn't strong enough to resist communism (it's doubtful at this point whether the Russian Orthodox Church is even apostolic, considering how compromised they were). Stuck in Eastern Europe for the last 1,000 years, unless one considers baptizing a few hundred Japanese and Eskimos. No evangelizing spirit as their spirituality is more focused on navel gazing and beard measuring contests. Wanna smoke pot? "Ask your priest." Wanna use contraception? "Ask your priest." Are Catholic and Protestant baptisms valid? Nobody knows. Anyone ever hear of respected networks of Orthodox hospitals and schools like Catholics and Protestants have? Me neither! They must be too busy preparing for the next neighborhood Greek or Serbian fest. A fun Orthodox game to play is "who's in communion with whom?" - it changes every week! What's the patriarch of the largest Orthodox "Church" famous for? If you guessed "support of unprovoked war against fellow Orthodox" you got it. There's the fruits of "holy" Orthodoxy for you!

Christ is in our midst!!

Easy, LionHippo44, where did this come from and how does it add to the topic of this thread.

You mix lots of Orthodox history together and your sarcastic tone is not appropriate. Orthodoxy did not fight Islam; the Byzantine Empire did. The collapse of the Romanov Empire was not the collapse of Orthodoxy. Truth be told the Russian Orthodox Church survived a trrrible persecution, as did the Greek Orthodox Church after the fall of the Byzatine Empire. The Orthodox Church is the people who remained faithful to Christ in the face of persecution by the civil authorities under which they found themselves.

As far as the Russian Church not doing evangelizing, they did a pretty fair job spreading the faith from Europe to the Far East and to Alaska. There is a mention of the language school they had in Kazan where their missionaries worked to translate the Liturgy and the Scriptures into native languages for the purposes of evangelization: see The Orthodox Church, by Timothy Ware.

Orthodoxy is not as prone to dogmatize as Western Christians but that does not mean that they do not keep the Apostolic Faith that they have received.

And as for accusing the Russian Church of losing its Apostolic status received from Byzantium, that accusation could more truthfully be leveled at the Catholic Church after the publication of Pope Francis' teachings in Amoris Laetitia and Fiducia Supplicans, were in the former it is suggested that adultery is okay if that's your thing and in the latter that sin can be blessed in the case or irregular relationships of all kinds.

The Coptic Church and the other Oriental Orthodox have broken off the ecumenical dialogues that have been going on for the last 20 years over the publication of Fiducia so none of us ought to throw stones at anyone else in this era when everyone seems to be going off the rails.

Bob
Moderator

With all due respect to your role as monitor, LionHippo44 was responding to EasternChristian19's comments above. The latter has increasingly posted words meant to ridicule Catholicism, especially with regard to the role of the Pope. Perhaps he went too far in his response, but fair is fair, and this needs to be pointed out.

That said, the Byzantine Empire fought againt many adversaries through the centuries, but most notably the Ottoman Empire, who finally conquered it....since we want to split hairs.

Also, how did the Coptic Church and Oriental Orthodoxy (both of which I deeply respect) become the " gold standard" by which we Catholics judge the Pope and the Vatican? They have every right to reject certain proclamations, but that reflects their beliefs and does not prove anything related to those proclamations.

Again, this is respectfully submitted in an appeal to fairness.

Christ is in our midst!!

If you followed the thread that discussed Fiducia Supplicans, there is a post about the Oriental Orthodox and their reaction to that papal document. Their reaction is the same as many in the Catholic Church over a teaching that departs radically from our shared heritage of moral teaching that comes to us from the Apostles. Theri reaction is simmilar to that of our African brothers and sisters who obtained an exemption from following that teaching for the whole of the African continent. Also the pushback from the Polish and Ukrainian bishops, and some from Asia.

By no means did I suggest that the Oriental Orthodox are a "gold standard" for anything. However, we do share a large amount of common teaching from the era before the schisms and which we both held until 2023. Currently, there is confusion over what we do teach since there is a wide disparity between what is going on in the German Church and those I mentioned who have reacted stongly and negatively to Fiducia.

Thanks, Hutsul. You're right, my reply was to "Eastern Christian" (aka "Colin Sheehan " aka "Ruthenian 1988", plus about a dozen reddit names from his time in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox subs where he would get into arguments with people and then rage quit). He's looking for a perfect Church that doesn't exist. Orthodoxy is comfortable for many people like him because it has the veneer of tradition, but it functionally operates like Protestantism - if you don't like something in your Orthodox jurisdiction, you just join another one. On the world stage, Orthodoxy is a nothingburger - a curiosity at best. Half of the entire Orthodox population lives in Russia, which has an abysmal Church attendance rate. Cradle Orthodox don't care about their faith any more than cradle Catholics. We just happen to be living in a moment where some traditionally-minded people are finding solace in Latin Mass parishes and some Orthodox enclaves. But overall, established religion is dying out worldwide, a fact we all just have to accept sooner or later.