www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Imagination in prayer

Hi everyone. I’m a Latin rite catholic and I’ve been interested in Byzantine Catholicism for a while, so I have been reading about the Jesus Prayer, but then stumbled upon the topic of using imagination in prayer. There seems to be a pretty serious problem that I don’t know how to reconcile. The western church advocates for it with prayers like the rosary and methods like the Spiritual Exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, whereas the eastern half of the church seems strictly against it, and in some places seems to label it extremely dangerous. The Eastern Orthodox of course just chalk it up to Catholics having false theology, but that doesn’t work for eastern rite Catholics within the church. Can anyone explain more about this? These methods seem greatly at odds with each other.

Glory to Jesus Christ!


I am curious if this is as much of a dichotomy as you say. I believe there is scepticism for this in the western church's tradition as much as the East. Western Catholic tradition offers us The Cloud of Unknowing as a model of contemplative prayer; St. John of the Cross also particularly writes against imagination in prayer.
I didn't know the rosary was prayed imaginatively, either; do you know if this is usually the case nowadays or if this is one of many ways of praying the rosary? While some certainly steer clear of anything western, the rosary is still prayed among many Catholics of eastern rites and even some Orthodox, I assume contemplatively.
While this certainly matters as a method of prayer-life, then, I don't know if it's fair to simply dichotomise between East & West here. I am far too inexperienced to judge these things myself, then, but it would seem to me that this is one of the many disagreements in the Church that, no matter the importance, does not formally separate you from the sacraments unless/until the Church rules otherwise.

Have a Blessed Sunday,
turaŭski

Salutations!

I myself have been fond of both the Rosary and the Jesus prayer for a while ever since my conversion to Christianity, and within the more mystical aspects of the Roman Rite (Carthusians, Carmelites, Rhineland Mystics), the Rosary at the start is for sure, imaginative, as what St. John of the Cross [O.C.D.] would say, "discursive meditation. Discursive meditation as described in his masterpiece, the Ascent of Mt. Carmel, is as mentioned, imaginative prayer in Scholastic/Aristotelian terminology. However, he does say this is for beginners, and for the most advanced and spiritually mature, this practice/meditation slowly fades away and is purified by God, so that the images don't becomes the object of which prayer is directed to. God becomes the object of prayer by which we negate images and all things, and allow the nothingness, the dryness of prayer, to become spaces of where God is made present. God creates ex nihilo, and through that nihilo of prayer over time, God is born in us. St. John and even other western mystics like Cusanus are bold in saying that these images over time become hard for us to imagine/produce, and become almost like a burden, or that the act of making an image in your mind, really produces a dark cloud.

St. John of the Cross [O.C.D.] strictly warns against though, a prolonged stage of discursive meditation, or in other words, a denial of progression or not allowing yourself to progress in the spiritual life, as these images can and probably will become idols of prayer and not tools of prayer. It is prelest, not because the images are intrinsically bad, but because it is spiritually dangerous to attach to them. It is essentially resisting God, when He is calling for your prayer to be passive and receptive, so that He can be beheld in nothingness, not analyzed in the fullness of your mind. This purification is called the Dark Night of the Soul, which is explained even more beautifully in St. John's poem, the "Noche Oscura."

St. John of the Cross [O.C.D.] warns against imaginative prayer for the spiritually advanced, as attachment to the images may lead the ego to believe it is experiencing a divine vision when it is visualizing something, when it is actually just experiencing its own mind, and disposes it to spiritual pride, or even open to demonic possession, which was and is the concern of imaginative prayer according to the Holy Fathers, especially St. Nilus of Sinai. Additionally, theologically God is immaterial, and transcendant, so He is not made known by material means, such as by the imaginative powers/senses, or the physical sight; but by prayer, faith, and grace.

Now, the mature Rosary, the westernized form of noetic prayer, when it simply becomes contemplative, allows Christ to be incarnate, when the images are gone and what is present now is Christ incarnate, Christ crucified, Christ resurrected, and Christ glorified (in respects to the mysteries of the Rosary) and really this is what the Holy Fathers have taught and preached (St. Nilus of Sinai, St. Basil, etc) about prayer, that it is meant to lack images, it is simply to be before God, not as a perfomance but as an act of the will, as an act of being present before Him. God is no longer analyzed or thought of, He simply is now the being of adoration, or worship, and allows contemplation to happen, or as the East would say, "theoria." This prayer that allows us to reach theosis/sanctification, as the prayer is no longer based on the self, but on God. Our simplicity, and even our silence over time, becomes that language that we use to speak to God. This is what Western mysticism essentially ends in, imageless prayer, contemplative, silent prayer, that is reached by purgation, the "via negativa" or "learned ignorance" of the famous mystics like Eckhart and Cusanus. I wished that I can demonstrate the peak of Western mysticism to my best ability.

Now, in the Eastern world, the Jesus Prayer is the simplest way to do noetic prayer, what is known in the Western world as contemplation, and to progress while allowing God, our Lord, to be in us and with us.

It's simply:

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

This allows the nous, the eyes and inner part of the soul, to not work, or for the mind to work, and to dispose it to reception of God in prayer. Notice how short this is. It's simple. This is what the Holy Fathers preached, what St. John Chrysostom taught, the Evagrian mystics like St. Nilus of Sinai, what St. Basil the Great, the Athonites, and so on.

Both the Rosary and Jesus Prayer achieve this, however both have different philosophies attached to it given that both come from different sides of Christianity.

Whichever leads you closest to God without damaging your body and soul, is what is best for you. As always, consult your spiritual director/father in regards to prayer.

Many years!

Christ is in our midst!!

cyrillian,

Welcome to the forum. We hope your time with us will be spiritually enriching.

A little humility on your part may be in order. Many of us are already fully aware of what you posted and are not in need of a new poster instructing us.

Bob
Moderator

Salutations!

My apologies Bob! I’m just very passionate about these traditions and wanted to share how I’ve reconciled them as a newcomer here.

Will keep in mind!

Many years!

It's just a bunch of Orthodox baloney they use to claim Catholics have false theology and spirituality. I don't think any other group in the world has as bad a Napoleon complex as the Orthodox. They can only define themselves in opposition to Catholicism. Otherwise, they don't have any real identity.
And let's be honest: no other Christian medium employed imaginative and novel concepts and ideas as much as Eastern iconography. They want to talk about imagination? Canonical icons depict Jesus exorcising demons in the River Jordan at His baptism, St. Joseph being tempted by Satan at the Nativity, and Christ holding his own mother as a young baby in the icon of the Dormition. Are these things actually described in Scripture? No, they're completely the products of iconographers' imaginations.
Furthermore, Marian feasts like the Entrance of the Theotokos into the temple and the Dormition / Assumption began in the East, but are based upon the non-canonical & non historic "Protoevangelium of James," an extra-biblical book chock full of imaginative fanfic legend stories.

May I ask why you're so censorious here? As it was already said at the start, this isn't an Eastern Orthodox practice but instead an eastern one. This practice was already seen in the west way before it was "necessary" for them to criticize the east. This wasn't made for the east to differentiate themselves from the west. Believe it or not, the east isn't this schismatic cult that is fervent anti-Latin, creating its theology to attack the West. This theology is supposed to help you reach Theosis, this theology is here to help you know Christ intimately close.

You go on then to criticize Icons that feature metaphors that aren't exactly mentioned in scripture, which first of all is completely irrelevant to the topic, but the west also does that? Christ holding the soul of Mary, being represent as a child, is no different than the Father being depicted as an old man.

There simply is no need to attack the Orthodox completely unrelated, which in this case is not even attacking properly since you just grouped the East into one Church. We are all trying to find Christ, to find where the eternal water of life flows. Even schismatics desire for it, wether it be the Protestants or the Eastern Orthodox, perhaps they desire it even more than you. Keep that in mind next time you try to see a theology merely as a counter reaction. God bless.

Christ is in our midst!!

LionHippo44,

You wrote


I'm not sure who or what you were responding to. In any event this sort of vitriol is not in keeping with the way we respond to each other on this forum. We are here to learn from and about each other, trying to bridge the polemics that have divided us for far too long.

May I suggest that you learn a little from our colleague, HaveFaith, who responded in a way that encapsulates the spirit we try to preserve here"


In the meantime, may I also suggest you go to the Town Hall section and reread the thread "Who We Are."

Bob
Moderator