www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Eastern Christianity and the Liturgy Wars

Greetings,

I hope you are all having a wonderful fast.
This has probably come up a few times, but I feel obliged to ask directly about this issue.
Since moving for university, I've had to engage with the West much more. Outside of the weekly visiting priest for Saturday liturgies, most of my faith life is centred in the Catholic student-chaplaincy. This has, thank God, given me many opportunities to learn about & appreciate the Latin rite, but has also given me plenty of chances for conversation, the spiritual benefit of which I feel uncertain about..

The two 'camps' of the Latin Church, while heavily imbalanced, are still quite visible here. While everyone shares the same space, Sunday Masses share the Latin-vernacular divide, and I think everyone around understands well who the 'traditionalists', 'moderates' and 'charismatics' liturgically are. Firstly, it seems confusing that there's such a divide between liturgical & charismatic worship; to my understanding, liturgy should come from the heart (as it did from the hearts of the saints who wrote them), and charismatic worship should be formed and cultivated in the tradition of the Church. Secondly, neither side of the divide seems to particularly stand out more from my outsider-ish perspective. While there are many changes made in Western reforms that seem to discard 'outdated' liturgical practices we've always had, some discussion with traditionalists reveals even older liturgical views that seem contradictory to our always-held views (e.g., that liturgy occurs in the sanctuary, and the congregation is a kind of 'optional add-on', not actually part of the sacrifice; hence, rosary-praying during the Mass). Those that prefer Latin, NO and EF, also seem somewhat foreign to me; more than viewing it as a liturgical language, some Latins seem to think of Latin as a 'sacred language' that demons specifically are averse to.
While I certainly find many aspects of the Old Mass more reminiscent of the beauty of my home-parish's liturgy, I am put off by this as well as the general sort-of sectarian behaviour of many traditionalists. Even when they try not to, they can't seem to help spending more time fouling the New Rite than simply praising and living out the old (though they're very happy to raise it up in comparison to the new!). While everyone I've talked to, new and old, has had nothing but respect for our practice and liturgy (though much less for the Orthodox), it's just these unaddressed contradictions that don't come up in everyday interaction, but do seem to almost give us different ideas of religious practice that worry me.

These conversations do not come up very often, but some of my closer friendships there have been made among people I enjoy discussing our Faith in such detail with; I would just enjoy much more positive and fruitful discussions than this. Then again, it's hard to tell either side to 'just stop arguing' when they each see this conflict as so important, though, in a way that unfortunately only reminds me more of politics more than the work of the Holy Spirit. I can't tell if I'm being overly avoidant of the issue, either; it's easy for me as an outsider to the issue to tell everyone to just 'calm down'.

Any advice or experience in approaching this strange, strange divide our Western brothers face from an Eastern perspective will be very appreciated, Catholic or Orthodox. The principles here, I think, remain very similar. Prayers are also very welcome.

turaŭski

Hello turaŭski,

I'm sorry you've run into this with our Latin brethren. It can certainly be difficult to get one's mind around if one didn't grow up in the Latin West.

Sadly, this is not shocking, as the divide has become so great.

May I ask where you're attending university?

As someone who grew up in the Latin tradition and served daily Mass for nearly a decade, but who also leans "traditional," the sense that I've gotten from those who perpetuate the "old Mass vs. new Mass" divide is that they are either 1. converts or else 2. Catholic reverts who never sufficiently prayed the Ordinary Form of the Mass (which is actually quite beautiful when one makes the effort to pray with it). Now, as a canonical Maronite, I find this division within the Latin tradition all the more heart-breaking.

My only advice is to work to become a well-catechized Catholic (something which is lacking on both the "traditional" and "modern" sides of the divide) and to remain faithful to the living Magisterium of the Church. It's a lonely road, but it's the road that Christ Himself established for us.

Christ is in our midst!!

turaŭski,

Welcome to the forum. We hope your time with us will be spiritually enriching.

Our brother, Philip Rolfes, has provided some sage advice.

Bob
Moderator

Christ is in our midst!!

turaŭski,

I copied a quote from one of the saints that may be appropriate here. I keep it in my prayerbook. He said that all of the things we do--prayer, fasting, almsgiving, etc.--were not the aim of our Christian life, but the indispensible means of achieving it. Our Christian life has as its goal the acquistiion of the Holy Spirit of God. All of these other things are helps along the way. Remember the Gospel admonition: by their fruits you will know them.

So if these three groups are fighting and arguing about which of their particular ways are the sure and only way of getting through this pilgrimage, IMHO, they have all missed the boat.

People marked by the Holy Spirit of God exhibit a number of traits. Humility is one; being unsure of one's own righteousness is another; being the first to reconcile in a dispute; going out of one's way to be a peacemaker; imbued with the love of Christ for Him and for everyone else--to name a few.

Please don't let these intramural arguments disturb your peace or your own walk with the Lord.

Bob

Philip,

Thank you for your response. I think your advice is correct, whatever limited consolation it may offer, and reminds me of similar advice given to me by a Melkite priest accompanying the Patriarch on the constant uneasiness of living between the Catholic & Orthodox. Thank you for this reminder, since it's tempting to assume frustrating = necessarily bad sometimes.
As for your question, I count myself very lucky to have ended up in Cambridge. The choice here is usually between Latin and vernacular NO, so I'm lucky that even the most traditionalists here are not broadly disparaging or schismatic, but at most, view the New Rite as an 'abridged', less-than-complete, or inferior version of the Old Rite mass for fulfilling the purposes of liturgy. I just think that, in comparison to our tradition (or even the approach of our Orthodox brethren not fully in communion with Rome), these conversations become much more about preserving rubric from further tainting, and of lamenting loss rather than looking towards the beauty offered; most people I have talked to, in my experience, seem to be drawn to the EF after having experienced extreme practices in their places of origin (ecumenical communion, whitewashing sacred art off cathedral walls, etc). This is why I also worry about sympathising with them for things we haven't had to deal with that they hold as important; but, then again, talk about the evils of Latins & Latinisations seems a little less common, and more tolerated than in some of these communities.

My worries, then, come in two kinds: in one way, that these (albeit minor) tensions reflect what the Abbot of Solesmes put much better than me in his letter to His Holiness [ncregister.com], that the current Latin Church has a broader split, a sort of 'schism within communion' that needs to be addressed if we want to live up to the Church as truly One. The question, then, is if there is anything I can do in these conversations to approach them, or if I should run from them altogether; both, on the face of it, seem slightly imprudent to me.

I hope this was not too tangential, and thank you again for your response and advice.

theophan,

He is and shall be! Thank you for your response as well, and for the warm welcome.
Thank you also for this reemphasis of the centrality of Christian life. I think I have tried to word these exact worries about centering God as the end, but, as is often the case, the saints speak my thoughts better than I ever could.
I suppose this is the greatest challenge; there will always be a temptation to get involved in these sorts of 'church politics', western or eastern, and just like with real politics, the moment I indulge in what isn't directly necessary or helpful to my faith is when I start to put other things ahead of trekking towards God in this life. I cannot say I yet fully understand the acquisition of the Holy Spirit, but if there is anything you recommend reading that might help, I would love to take it.

Speaking of which, this may be tangential and (in part) already worrying about matters outside my remit, but I have found points where these intramural arguments spill over into our church's affairs. It seems most Roman Catholics I know from here are, at best, very skeptical of the Orthodox. While I sometimes (somewhat regularly) attend, alongside weekly Divine Liturgy and occasional masses, some Eastern Orthodox services, I've recently had genuine worries from friends about not 'praying with schismatics', as comparable to a Roman Catholic choosing to pray with the SSPX. Something about this feels intrinsically wrong to me, but I can't seem to explain it, because the canonical terminology seems sound; am I missing something here, or have I been genuinely mistaken in choosing to pray our shared prayers with our Orthodox brethren as a Catholic would be attending to pray at an SSPX liturgy?

Thank you for the support regardless, and with best wishes & prayers,
turaŭski

Christ is in our midst!!

turaŭski,

"It seems most Roman Catholics I know from here are, at best, very skeptical of the Orthodox."

To me this is a very sad thing after the years since Vatican 2. We were called to learn about our brethren from the other Apostolic Churches from whom we have been separated for so long. They have a rich liturgical and spiritual life that can benefit us. I have been close to the Byzantine Orthodox since my days at university and have worshiped with them here for many years. If not for an Orthodox priest who guided my prayer life at that time, I may not be even a Christian today. Many of my Catholic brethren don't remember the chaos in liturgy and spirituality that attended the Council years or the aftermath. It seemed that everything was to be thrown out because it was from the pre-Vatican 2 era. Irreverent liturgy, sermons against praying the rosary, the phrase "you don't have to do that anymore," were all part of those years. It was like a whiplash, going from the way we had been taught and doing a 180 degree turn in a year or two.

I had a revelation once in an Orthodox church. I looked around at the people praying and being fully involved in the liturgical action. And it hit me that these people were growing close to Christ and they didn't need Catholics to do it. I was stunned.

So ignore those who still look askance at our brethren in the Apostolic Churches that are not in communion with Rome. They have much to teach us, much to share with us.

As for understanding "the acquisition of the Holy Spirit," just keep the door of your heart open and He will come in and work with you.

Bob

Amen.

Christ is in our midst!!

turaŭski,

May I make a few suggestions about "the acquisition of the Holy Spirit"? I suggest starting with the first prayer of the Trisagion: O Heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, that art present everywhere and fillest all thing, Treasury of Good things and Bountiful Giver of life, come and abide in us and cleanse us from every stain, Good Lord, and save our souls. Invite Him in.

Begin reading Sacred Scripture and "knead" it into your life and action. I say "knead," like incorporating yeast into dough. Meditate on the message God will give you in your study of the sacred text.

Read the Desert Fathers and see the wisdom that is there.

That's enough for the beginner. Don't do a shotgun approach trying to incorporate everything you can find. That will cause you to lose heart. We all begin small and we are all lead as the Holy Spirit knows we are ready to progress. One of the pieces of advice I was given long ago was to keep asking for faith and for the Holy Spirit to come. Often He waits to see if we are truly committed to having Him come and work in us. In my own journey, I remember asking for faith for over a year until it suddenly took hold and swept me along.

Pray, trust, be at peace.

Bob

He is and shall be!

theophan,
Thank you for this and for your previous reply, I have indeed found both spiritually fruitful.
I admit I have been luckier than I thought; in reading the Trisagion, I have come to appreciate this prayer much more than I did before. I have found much of my years reading it before, both in Saturday Vespers and in daily prayers, to generally skip over it as a sort of necessary intro, but your comments on the importance of the Holy Spirit have helped me gain at least a better understanding of what was otherwise just 'another prayer'. The advice on Scripture is also a very good reminder, which I thank you for - I have been trying to make use of an OSB my priest gifted me last year, but I think I let it slide more than I should sometimes!

But yes, in my deepening and rediscovery of my faith and prayer, I am glad to say I've already learned from the mistake of doing too much, too soon! I suppose I am at a stage of understanding that, but I do not want to say I have gone much further - I fear painting myself as some kind of iurodivy, and allowing myself to merely grow in pride and bring all the work God might have done through me to naught. A focus on asking for the faith and the Holy Spirit might truly help with this; I will try to incorporate this more into my daily life. If, in the meantime, you may also please pray a little for me, I can then only hope that my faith properly blossoms and grows.

Many thanks once more, and happy feast!
turaŭski

theophan,

These kinds of issues have been tearing at me for years. I'm grateful for this forum to have as a platform to openly discuss these things without judgement. I came into the GOC in 2017 after being in the Anglican church, and by extension of my parents, the non-denominational protestant church.There is much that can be said, but I took to reading the Holy Fathers and found myself immersed in their teachings and found bedrock to stand on.

But the story doesn't end there. I experienced trauma from a priest in the EOC and found the door closed. I felt it as an insular community and I didn't fit in. Living in a small, isolated community, I found myself attending either the local Episcopal mission or the Latin Catholic mission. In both cases, I began to struggle deep inside even though I wanted to be in community.

Part of the issue is the western vs eastern cultural differences. I have to accept that I'm western. Many eastern traditions don't resonate with me (and many western ones don't either). But I find the underlying doctrine as sound, in comparison to the Latin church. One possible avenue would be the Western Orthodox church, but it appears to have never fully developed. An Abba mother I once spoke with called it "half-baked".

At last, there is a Ukrainian EC monastery a ways off from where I am. It's a journey to get there, but I find it as a genuine presence of grace. Trying to reconcile all the facets and dogmas as a busy layperson can be overwhelming. I stopped going to the local mission churches and instead stay home to search the core of my faith. Providence led me to the book, "The Art of Prayer". It stands with the teachings of the Holy Fathers. I keep my EOC prayer rule. Better to stay home with this than to be exposed to false teachings.

Peace in Christ,

Michele

Christ is Risen!!

Michelle/Atomic Parakeet 1,

Welcome to the forum. We hope your time with us is spiritually enriching.

Bob
Moderator

Christ is Risen!!

turaŭski,

It is sometimes in the prayers we skip over without really mediating on them that contain the most profound things.

May I suggest that you take the Prayer to the Holy Spirit and pray it slowly, meditating on each and every word. Make it your sole prayer sometime and understand the power that is it. The phrase "come and abide in us" is one I keep finding in other prayers by the saints. Become the vessel for the Holy Spirit to work and ask Him to take over the "machinery" of your life, guiding you in every thought, word, and deed.

I also recommend the prayers of St. Philaret of Moscow. Lord, grant me to greet this coming day in peace . . . and Lord, I know not what to ask of Thee . . .

If you don't have these, let me know and I will print them out for you.

Bob

Christ is Risen!!

turaŭski,


I thought about your response and think I may have a direction to help you along. There is a book I came upon decades ago which is still in print entitled, "Beginning to Pray" by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom. He wrote decades ago. His Eminence collected this book from talks he gave on the BBC during WW2. It's easy to read for the beginner and I highly recommend it. One of the things he says is that we ought to pray a routine for a number of years to gain a disciplined structure on which to build our prayer life. That is the reason for prayer books and it's especially good for Byzantines and other Eastern Christians because all of the Churches have collections of prayers by saints in each tradition that are arranged in a liturgical way--similar to the Divine Services offered in Church.

I used his advice myself and bought an Orthodox prayer book early in my life. I kneaded the prayers and their phrases into my thoughts over many years. They come back to me at times when I need them--giving credit to the Holy Spirit for the nudges that they are.

theophan,
He is Risen Indeed!

Many thanks for these additional messages. I have a prayerbook and used to read regularly for vespers, so I am familiar with the 'Heavenly King...' prayer in both Church-Slavonic & Belarusian (though, embarrassingly, I have still not learned it in English!). Could I ask that you direct me to St. Philaret's prayers, though? I've never come across them so far, and would be happy to see them in English or Slavonic.

I have also come across Beginning to Pray, though I never had time to actually read it. This is another good reminder. But you're completely right about the importance of prayerbooks; I have noticed sometimes that I make far more use of my morning & evening prayers than the actual prayers given by saints throughout the day. I won't stray too far from this thread's original topic, but I think you are correct that I just need to continue to stay consistent with prayer life, with the Holy Spirit's help, and let the rest follow slowly.
..At least it's an easy reminder not to judge. Why question this or that person's holiness when I myself struggle to give even half an hour of my day to him?

God be with you,
turaŭski