www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Understanding Involuntary Sin

Christ is Risen!

HaveFaith, I wish we could speak in person, there is so much to discuss....

First I'll clarify that I am Byzantine Catholic. The comment I made about conversion was in regards to Roman Catholicism (perhaps I should have typed "changing rite" instead of "conversion").

The other thing I want to type is that my complaints here are in regards to the specific aspect of involuntary sin of category (a) - choosing the lesser evil. I believe that categories (b) - sins without consent of the will, and (c) - sins of ignorance - are true involuntary sins. So that is what else they would be to answer your question.
And so, the reason I believe I am not switching to Chistology is that the Bible clearly claims that God can't sin (1 Peter 2:22). So if we say that choosing the lesser evil is a sin then that means that Jesus sinned and we have a contradiction. Therefore choosing the lesser evil must not be a sin, right?? You see, I'm not arguing that God can sin. I'm arguing that because He can't, that means that choosing the lesser evil is not a sin. The same arguments apply to killing and polygamy, like you mentioned. I don't understand how we can resolve the logical contradiction otherwise. I suppose we can say that "when God does it, it's not a sin," but THAT is being legalistic and I find it unconvincing.

Truly He is risen!

Glad you clarified some things for me. But also, why pick and choose? Who's to say only two categories are "true" involuntary sin? Why not one? If the Fathers made these "categories" and believed all of them were involuntary sin then why suddenly believe otherwise? Why believe only half of what they say?

Also, the reason you are switching to some other topic is because, like you said, "God can not sin". You're discussing now the nature of Christ. But, I want to ask again, what sin? What sin did Jesus do? If you look back at my other reply, I explained that the whole passage about Mary and Joseph losing Jesus is showing that Christ was correct. He did no wrong. The reason I brought up Mary's worry was rather to show you that he didn't make Mary sin. How is that "choosing the lesser evil"?

Jesus had the choice: ignore His Father's command and cause no anxiety for His mother, or obey His Father's command and cause His mother great stress. He chose the lesser evil. I don't think it's controversial to say that causing someone great stress is an evil act. If a child runs away from home for 2 days and his mother goes nearly crazy with worry, I'd say that an evil has been committed. So, this is why I say that Jesus committed evil. He was correct to do so, I agree! I agree! But He still committed evil involuntarily.
If there is some doubt about the above, we can turn to polygamy, which you were right to bring up. God says that polygamy is evil, but it was tolerated out of necessity. That is a lesser evil that God permitted, is it not? Furthermore, we can turn to killing in war, which St. Basil calls "involuntary". But God ordered war. Did God order sin? or did God order a lesser evil to be committed? That is, did He order the Hebrews to commit involuntary sin, or did He order them to simply commit an involuntary evil? You said before that there is a difference between just killing and unjust killing - is just killing not a sin? How do you reconcile all this with St. Basil's teaching, which you believe labels just killing in war as an involuntary sin?

The lack of cohesive comprehensive teaching saying "Involuntary sin is x, y, z" causes confusion. No explanation, actually no presentation of the concept at all, is even attempted at in my Church's catechism (UGCC). My priest (whom I assume attended seminary), says choosing the lesser evil is not an involuntary sin. Maybe he was goofing off during class, but more probably they didn't teach him this. Furthermore, as mentioned before, I did not find an example of the Church fathers calling choosing the lesser evil an "involuntary SIN" (simply "involuntary"). Even further, the teachings of the Church fathers are not infallible. So, while we shouldn't "pick and choose" carelessly, if we can see that a teaching is inconsistent with other infallible teachings of the Church (namely, that God doesn't sin) then we shouldn't believe in it.
Rereading the above I realize it sounds kinda rebellious, so I'll repeat that I'm obviously open to being wrong and am searching for the truth.

I might have mixed up divorce with polygamy in the post above, but I think the point remains.

Christ is Risen!!


InvoSinner, do you mean this? This statement is pure blasphemy. Obeying the Father's command can never be an evil.

Referring to any part of the Lord's Saving and Blessed Passion and using the word "evil", crosses so many llines.

May I suggest that this topic has wandered far into Prelest, that spiritual delusion that is dangerous to the soul. Delving into areas far beyond our knowlege and spiritual formation is a dangerous undertaking.

Truly, He is risen!

I suppose you have a point, Theophan, but... why then is killing in war a sin? I thought the argument was that killing is evil, whether voluntary or not, and so if someone kills in war (obeying God or not), then he commits an evil. I used the word evil under this assumption and apologize if it is the wrong term.
HaveFaith referred to it as missing the mark because of an imperfect world, and it seems to me that this here is the same situation. Jesus didn't want to cause Mary stress, but our imperfect world forced Him into this situation where He had to make such a choice.

Anyway, I think I do agree with you that the topic is wandering and isn't getting anywhere.
Thank you again to all who have replied and help me try and understand this. God bless!

Christ is Risen!!

Jesus was not "forced" to do anything. He tells us in Sacred Scripture that He has the power to lay down His life and to take it up again. The Byzantine liturgical texts for Great and Holy Week speak of "the Lord Who is going to His voluntary and ever-memorable Passion for our salvation." He told Pontius Pilate that He was "born for this." His generosity in so doing is breath-taking. It is mind-boggling to me. As He says, it is one thing to lay down one's life for a good man, but ever more so for a sinner. Can you imagine stepping forward to exchange your life for someone else? St. Maximilian Kolbe comes to mind in the Nazi concentration camp. But I can't say I'd be up for that.

Killing in war may not be a sin. It all depends on context. The Just War theory has lots of nuance to it and allows for the defense of one's home, family, and country. It's similar to the idea that one has the right to defend ones' family from home invasion. Come through my door in the middle of the night at your own peril.

Theophan, I gave it some thought and I just want to make this one more comment to try to wrap the thread up:

I created this post last year with the hope that I was going to get replies saying something like "St. so and so wrote that involuntary sin is x, y, z, and he gave these arguments for it. This other saint wrote that involuntary sin is a, b, and c, but he explained it in this different way. The Byzantine Church overall holds that involuntary sin is d, e, f, and strongly recommends the faithful believe g, h, i as well but it's not required ........."
In other words, besides trying to get an understanding of all the different thoughts, I was seeking some sort of authoritative teaching. I was worried that my personal conception made me some sort of heretic and wasn't allowed. But now I see that 5 or so different users replied to this thread and every one of you has his own personal understanding of what involuntary sin is. There doesn't seem to be a comprehensive authoritative teaching, and that's OK. Maybe that's just something we have to accept, each of us guided by our own prayer, conscience, and understanding (like turauski said).
I was experiencing a lot of spiritual pain last year because of this, but you guys all helped me, even though we didn't end in common agreement.

Christ is Risen!!

InvoSinner,

We all walk three-legged into the Kingdom. Sometimes I fall and you pick me up. Sometimes you fall and I pick you up. We go to our confessor and get help. We don't try to do it ourselves. There are no "rugged individuals" in the Christian walk: we are saved individually within community.

I've been advised over the years not to try to define everything but to trust in Christ's "Great and Rich Mercy." Humility of the right sort--being able to admit when I am in over my head and do not understand something is not a weakness; it's strength.

Be at peace, brother, and trust that the Lord loves you; is nearby always. As St. Gregory of Nyssa has written, "the Bridegroom is near; He is just not seen."