www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How Many Eastern Churches?

Orthodox moral theologian Fr. Stanley Harakas treats contraception as an open issue, stating that some theologians nearly equate it with abortion; "most authors, however....would support the use of contraceptive practices for the purpose of spacing and limiting children so as to permit greater freedom of the couple in the expression of their mutual love."
("For Health of Body and Soul: An Eastern Orthodox Introduction to Bioethics." Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1980. p.42)

Orthodox convert,

St. Gregory Palamas is considered a father of the church.

St. Theophan the Recluse is considered a father of the church.

The Orthodox make no artificial distinction that at some point in time one could no longer be a father.

A father (or mother) of the Church is one who teaches the true faith.

anastasios

SpDundas -- Of course, Christ Himself noted in the Gospels that *adultery* was a permissible reason for a divorce. Granted, that is a limited exception, but is an exception all the same and not the thoroughly unequivocal teaching that the Latin Church has adopted (and which led to the need for the theory of anulments, for practical reasons).

Convert -- ecclesiastical divorce dates from the Byzantine era. There were church councils that provided certain penalties for those who were divorced (ie, temporary excommunication) centuries before the schism. If the Pope had a problem with it then, he certainly didn't say anything about it at the time (and we have to remember, as the Latin Catholics like to point out, that when the Popes of that period had a problem with something a church council did or said, they weren't shy about saying so, as we can see from Pope St. Leo the Great after Chalcedon).

Personally, there is almost no difference in practice between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in this area. The difference lies in terminology, with Orthodoxy acknowledging (in my opinion) the reality of the situation, and Catholicism choosing to characterize that reality in different terms in order to support a marital theology that is more strict than the words of the Gospel.

Brendan

Christ Himself did NOT say in the Gospel*s* that adultery was a reason granting the right to remarry. The infamous "except for fornication" ONLY occurs in Matthew--the Gospel written to the Jews. If there was such a loophole in the Gospels that could widen to admit all matter of reasons for divorce and remarriage it seems strange it only occurs in Matthew's Gospel. The parallel passages in Mark and Luke (Gospels written with the Gentiles in mind) seem very strict: "Whoever puts his wife away and marries another woman commits adultery against his wife, and if a wife puts her husband away and marries another man, she commits adultery." (Mark 10:10-12; Luke 16:18) The traditional Catholic explanation of the Matthean "exception" relates it to a comment on Rabbinic teaching on validity of marriages (invalid marriages being "fornication").

The Catholic position seems too strict in some eyes. That's what the disciples said when they heard Jesus' statement about marriage and divorce: "If that's the relationship between a man and his wife, it's better not to marry!" (Matthew 19: 10) Jesus' words were meant to be understood as strict. Compassionate as he was to those he met he was not soft on divorce.

The development of divorce in Byzantine jurisprudence does not guarantee that was a legitimate development for the Church. And the fact that annulments in the Catholic Church today are seemingly easily obtained (as compared to fifty years ago) does not guarantee that the current "annulment mill" is a legitimate development either.

If we are true to the Gospels then divorce should be viewed as an alternative that would make us believe that it would have been better for us not to marry at all since remarriage would likely cause us to commit adultery in God's eyes.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

How many Eastern Churches are there?

Several hundred thousand.

Every person is a member of a Christian community, composed of baptized Christians who are seeking their salvation.

How these individual parishes ally themselves is another matter. There are multiple jurisdictions and so-called "Churches", but the fact remains that MY salvation (and YOURS too!!) is inextricably entwined with the people with whom you share your life.

May I quote the litany of supplication from the Liturgical heritage: "For a peaceful end of our lives, blameless and for a good accounting before the awesome Judgement Seat of Christ, let us pray to the Lord!"

One can only do that by being a good Christian with those with whom we share our daily lives. The Pope doesn't know me. The Metropolitan Archbishop doesn't know me. The Bishop (maybe?) knows me. But my pastor does; and the folks in the ladies guild and men's club, and the ushers do (and the picnic committee does). So, when I go to the Lord's Judgement Seat, I will rely upon the witness of my parish brethren to witness that I've been a good guy and worthy of mercy.

So, I don't give a whole lot of credence to much of the theological stuff; it's just my ability to demonstrate to God and to my neighbor, that I'm living the Gospel. As far as the Gospel is concerned, there isn't anything else.

So. Do what is best for your salvation within Catholicism or Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy since they alone have the valid sacraments. Don't be seduced by the lunacy of the theologians (I'm a diploma-ed one, so I can say this.)

Pray. Do good to everyone including the outcasts. Link up with other good people who serve the poor and outcasts. Give what you can to help the needy. Volunteer to help those in need. Confess and consult your spiritual father/mother on what you are doing. Beg forgiveness of your co-workers, friends, family and acquaintences for your failings. And promise yourself that you'll both pray and do whatever is necessary for the well-being of your fellow human beings.

Please pray for me -- and for my Mom in the nursing home.

Blessings!

Greetings Spdunas,
Divorces are sad and unfortunate. A thing greatly detested by God. However, because of the sinfulness of humanity divorces do occur despite one's church affiliation, Catholic or Orthodox. The history of divorces are long and documented in both Catholic and Orthodox churches. From a pastoral perspective one has to use a practical discernment for the salvation of the soul. One can argue day and night that the Catholic Church does not grant divorces except via anullments. That's a clever way of avoiding the reality of divorces. The Catholic stance on divorces is no different than some Popes should not have gotten married or had mistressess and children according to the Catholic teachings. The reality speaks for itself. Please note that the Bible does not have sole authority of interpretation. You and I know that belongs to the realm of the Church and her Bishops. Christ told us that the Holy Spirit will lead us the Church to all truths. Therefore, the Church has the responsibility and authority on the earth to bind or loosen as She sees fit for the salvation of the soul. I do not believe the Roman Catholic Church in regards to divorces is discerning, and the ideas behind anullments are practically divorces. I do agree that the Church should be involved to reconcile spouses prior to any form of divorce. We do know and have documented cases as to why divorces are permitted for the sake of either spouse's soul. I have yet to meet & know of a faithful and practicing couple getting divorced.
As for remarriages, they ought not to be viewed as sinful acts. Literally interpreting biblical verses out of historical context that attack remarriages is unjust and ungodly. The life and history of the Church can attest to that. The Church via the Holy Spirit knows best. Remarriages happen from time to time and may best for the individuals souls under pastoral guidance.

Dear Friends,

The matter of divorce is a most painful one and apart from the actual practice of our Churches, divorce can really tear apart people's lives, children's lives and society.

Christ did make mention of adultery and its impact on a marriage, although the interpretation here varies.

The Catholic Church does not expect a hurt party in an adulterous marriage to stay with that partner or even to ever be reconciled with that partner if they cannot bring themselves to do it.

Annulments are, however one wishes to call them, actual divorces in fact, sanctioned by the Catholic Church, locally, if not universally.

The idea that psychologists' can determine the outcome of a church decision to grant an annulment - well, only in America as they say!

The Eastern Church, even when the Church was One, allowed for separation of marital partners, and even for remarriage, under certain conditions as decided and adjudicated upon by bishops.

(One ancient saying goes, "One's first wife is from God, the second is from the people and the third is from the devil.")

There have been Saints who have separated from spouses and who have had their marriages annulled through the ceremony of monastic tonsure, which annuls all prior commitments and contracts, including marriage. The term "get thee to a nunnery" was actually a call for formal marital annulment! This was how formerly kings got rid of queens they were no longer interested in . . .

I worked in a Catholic educational institution where a good number of the employees were divorced and, because they couldn't get married in church, lived together in unlawful matrimony with others.

They went to communion regularly, notwithstanding.

The real scandal there was that the priests who were confronted with this simply decided to turn the other way and pretend the problem didn't exist.

As one of them said, "If it's O.K. with you, it's O.K. with me and I don't want to hear about it."

Bad, no?

Alex