The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Regf2, SomeInquirer, Wee Shuggie, Bodhi Zaffa, anaxios2022
5,881 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 members (Fr. Deacon Lance, 2 invisible), 311 guests, and 28 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,219
Posts415,295
Members5,881
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
I've made a decision to stay in communion with Rome as an Eastern Catholic, but wonder if I'm lying to myself. I've certainly been told numerous times by internet busybodies that I'm not Catholic (for any number of reasons, one being that I'm uncertain about papal infallibility and papal supremacy) and I wonder if they are right.

So what are we really supposed to believe about papal infallibility? For those of you that have problems with this (like me), how do you reconcile staying in communion with Rome? It's difficult for me as receiving communion in a Church signifies a full communion with that Church. So the question is whether papal infallibility and supremacy are important enough to push me out of communion with Rome.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
And I will leave this to an answer grape biggrin

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,315
Likes: 21
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,315
Likes: 21
Dear Jennifer,

What we believe about papal infallibility is that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra or from the Chair of Peter to define certain truths, then these truths become, if they are not already, part of the Catholic faith that all Catholics must accept and affirm.

When a pope canonizes a saint, he is exercising the charism of infallibility too.

Also, when a pope in union with all the bishops define something, he and they are exercising this charism for the Body of Christ.

But as Bl. Pope John XXIII once said, "I'm only infallible when I speak ex cathedra - and I will never speak ex cathedra!"

Papal infallibility is simply an expression of the way in which the Holy Spirit guards the Church from error as the Church teaches and expounds the one Faith delivered once and for all by Christ through the Apostles.

As ST Robert Cardinal Bellarmine said, if a pope proposed an heresy, he would cease to be pope. He also wrote that Catholics should even oppose a pope where he to try to destroy the Church etc.

The people too are guardians of the Faith.

When we pray the Jesus Prayer and confess our Lord to be the "Christ, the Son of the Living God," we too become "Peter."

Alex

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
Allright here comes the argument part. Why do we believe this? Because the pope claimed he was infallible and he was infallible when he said it so that makes him infallible (circular reasoning)?

I struggle so much with this teaching. I just don't see it in the early Church.

Are there examples of early popes claiming infallibility?

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,790
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,790
Jennifer- reading history may help your doubts; every one of the ancient patriarchal sees was a stronghold of one or another of the ancient heresies save one: Rome. Throughout history the Holy See has preserved the True Faith, when others have faltered.
In our own day Rome alone has held to the Apostolic teaching on contraception, against the grain of modernity.
-Daniel, the Byzantine papist

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 275
Praying and asking for prayer
Offline
Praying and asking for prayer
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 275
No, Jennifer, it's not just that the Pope once said he was infallible and that made it so...that would be circular reasoning as you said.

Try reading "Jesus, Peter, and the Keys" It's a book that I've enjoyed very much, and it is very good attempt at presenting "protestant-Catholic-orthodox" viewpoints, while retaining unity with Rome....

I hope this helps a little.

UIC


Let us pray for Unity In Christ!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
My old RC pastor lent me that book a few years ago and I was very unimpressed. I'd just finished reading a book about the papacy written by Frs. Schmemman (never can remember how to spell his name) and Meyendorff and some others.

The book by the Orthodox priests had whole passages from the father and discussed them. Jesus Peter and the Keys was just a string of proof-texts from the Fathers.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,680
Likes: 14
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,680
Likes: 14
Hi Jennifer,

Forgive me for being blunt, but your posts come across as if you are seeking to trash the Roman Catholic Church. That is never appropriate. Can you please be less insulting to the Latin Church as you participate here? Thanks!

Admin

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 216
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
Hi Jennifer,

Forgive me for being blunt, but your posts come across as if you are seeking to trash the Roman Catholic Church. That is never appropriate. Can you please be less insulting to the Latin Church as you participate here? Thanks!

Admin
Oh come on now!

My posts do no such thing except maybe to those who see any kind of criticism of the Roman Church as "trashing" the Church.

Actually they couldn't even be that since I didn't criticize the Roman Catholic Church.

I did not "insult" the western Church. I'm a member of the western Church.

I merely stated that a book was unsatisfying to me intellectually.

I'm really disappointed at this response. Are we not allowed to discuss things here? Are we not allowed to be intellectually honest?

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Jennifer,

You have pointed out the main weakness of Jesus, Peter and the Keys--it is mainly a string of quotes. It does have some significant information in it, however, and it can't just be dismissed because of its format. Every book has its good points and bad points. One of the most unsatisfying books for me on the Orthodox side was The Papacy by Abbe Guette--a book which is still popular in some Orthodox circles. One former Eastern Catholic has the entire book online on his site. Meyendorff is a much better read though his work can be criticized on some points.

A book I've found helpful is The Eastern Churches and the Papacy by the Rev. S. Herbert Scott. It's unfortunately out of print but is available through inter-library loan.

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
H
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
Offline
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
H
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
Quote
Originally posted by Jennifer:
I've made a decision to stay in communion with Rome as an Eastern Catholic, but wonder if I'm lying to myself. I've certainly been told numerous times by internet busybodies that I'm not Catholic (for any number of reasons, one being that I'm uncertain about papal infallibility and papal supremacy) and I wonder if they are right.

So what are we really supposed to believe about papal infallibility? For those of you that have problems with this (like me), how do you reconcile staying in communion with Rome? It's difficult for me as receiving communion in a Church signifies a full communion with that Church. So the question is whether papal infallibility and supremacy are important enough to push me out of communion with Rome.
Glory to Jesus Christ!

This is interesting to me because I have had the same concerns.

Personally, I have always considered myself an Old Catholic, even as a Roman (I am still Roman, actually).

For practical reasons, I am in communion with Rome, despite any mental reservations I carry. I do not claim to speak for the Eastern Catholics in this regard, any more than I can speak for my fellow Roman Catholics. I will remain in communion with Rome until such time as I am thrown out eek

I find comfort in remarks made by some Melkite hierarchs which have said in effect (I paraphrase): I believe in everything the Orthodox church teaches, and I am in communion with Rome according to the understanding of the First Millenium church!

Other Eastern Catholics may take me to task for this, but that's how I see it.

In Chist Always,
Michael, that sinner

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,315
Likes: 21
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,315
Likes: 21
Dear Jennifer,

I think you should speak only with me because I'm known (if djs is to be believed wink ) to be one of the most gracious posters here!

(O.K., I fall from grace sometimes . . .)

You raise a good point, where does papal infallibility come from?

Perhaps the word itself is daunting and non-Eastern (like the words "Transubstantiation" and "Transmutation" etc.).

But it does express the fundamental truth, that the Fathers and the Councils have always taught, that the Church, as the Body of Christ, is led by the Holy Spirit and is guarded by God from error.

That is a fundamental truth that ALL Christians accept about THE Church (and also about THEIR church or community that they belong to).

There have been times when the faith of the Church and also its moral life, came under attack or else the Church felt the need to regulate them.

This is done by way of Ecumenical Council and also by Local Council (and the laws of the latter can also be approved for the entire Church).

Also, individual Patriarchs can issue letters etc.

As Schmemann and others have said categorically, the authority of the BISHOP (meaning any bishop) is ABSOLUTE in the Church.

This is believed by both Orthodox and Catholics (and also any other Christians who hold to the hierarchy of "bishop, priest, deacon").

When our Bishop, Metropolitan or Patriarch teaches something, he is affirming the Apostolic Faith that the Councils expounded.

Whether one is Catholic or Orthodox, one accepts the teaching not because of the man who teaches, but because the Holy Spirit is using the hierarch to communicate to us living today what He wishes us to accept with our minds and hearts in terms of faith and moral practice.

From a very early period of Church history, three and then five patriarchates developed as great Christian centres, founded by the Apostles - Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople and Jerusalem.

Union with these patriarchates meant that one was in union with the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the New Testament, founded by our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

At Councils, as defined by the Fourth, the Bishop of Rome held a primacy of honour as first Patriarch in the Church.

This Petrine Primacy was what gave the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Church of Christ her unity - as Meyendorff has shown and quoted from sources to the same effect, as has Kallistos Ware.

Rome didn't involve itself jurisdictionally in the affairs of other Churches or other theologians/teachers - except in times of crisis, such as the iconoclast crisis and others before it.

As we see during the proceedings of the Sixth Council, Rome and her bishops are praised highly by the Eastern Fathers!

And one reason for that is that the Patriarchs of the East needed Rome as a referee in their dealings with the Byzantine Emperor who basically held sway over the Eastern Church (much like the Tsar of Russia did over the Russian Church in caesaro-papist fashion).

It was really only over the Filioque issue that provoked the schism between East and West that the East refused to recognize the Roman Pope as bearing the Primacy and the rest is "l'histoire" as they say.

Papal infallibility is therefore ONE way the Holy Spirit affirms the Apostolic Faith and defends it, as He hands it down to succeeding generations of Orthodox Catholic Christians.

The Ecumenical Council in union with the Pope is another.

And when my bishop teaches me something, I accept that without question, just as if the Pope were teaching it to me (hello, Vladyko!!).

If we feel that papal infallibility appears as too authoritarian etc., let us consider that the bishop's authority in general is absolute.

The Pope is the mouthpiece for the Church, when it comes to defining and defending faith and morals, he is where the "buck stops."

As St Augustine said, "Roma locuta, causa finita" (being a lawyer, I know you know what that means smile ).

And what is the reverse of papal infallibility - that the pope can teach error? And then, that the bishops can teach error?

As the Fathers taught, without the Bishop, there is no Church. The Bishop (metropolitan, patriarch or pope) is the foundation upon which the Church is built.

The Bishop is the successor of the Apostles, of St Peter himself.

But the Church has, from earliest times, always given a pre-eminence to the Bishop of Rome and the BIshops of Rome have always taken it upon themselves to teach the entire Church, to defend the Church against her enemies and to sacrifice their lives, as the many early papal HIeromartyrs did, rather than betray the Church.

I am in communion with the Pope of Rome because I believe that in so doing, I'm doing what the Church of the first thousand years did and acted toward that Hierarch.

That his teachings "ex cathedra" (meaning "when he has the intention to speak with the authority of Peter and the Apostles") are to be accepted as teachings that the Holy Spirit wishes us to accept.

And I find nothing here that is contrary to what Orthodoxy has always taught about the office and role of Bishop and Patriarch.

And also about the Petrine Minister of Rome.

Alex

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 63
New
Offline
New
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 63
Well said Alex!

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 63
New
Offline
New
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 63
Administrator,

Jennifer is merely asking questions and telling honestly her doubts. You should be helping her understand the faith of Holy Mother Church instead of discouraging.

Michael

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,680
Likes: 14
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,680
Likes: 14
Jennifer,

There is a way to discuss issues without being judgmental or offensive. Your accusations (like the one that Roman Church has �trashed its liturgy�) cross the line of good behavior. It would be much more constructive to speak in terms of �I believe the liturgical changes in the Roman Catholic Church at Vatican II were not good for the Church� and then go on to make your case.

Admin

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5