www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "Lances"?

My comment on the above-repeated point is that the official reason for it is to be in conformity with the Immaculate Conception being celebrated on December 8 by the vast majority of American Catholics. The Immaculate Conception is the patronal feast of the United States.

Which could be and probably has been interpreted as, "Prove you're really Catholic by becoming more like the Romans'.

Nope.

In years past I have had Ukrainian Catholic wall calendars where although it is called the IC it is listed on Dec. 22 (Julian Dec. 9).

http://oldworldrus.com

Serge, in your list above, I'll bet you could take half to three-quarters of the "Latinization"'s and replace it with "GOA".

In Slovakia, even the Orthodox Church includes the national patronal holiday, the Seven Sorrows of the B.V.M., on their calendars. That doesn't mean they observe it liturgically.

Did you hear that the "Byzantine Serra Club" in Pittsburgh tried to replace the Sunday of Orthodoxy a few years ago with a general commemoration of deceased bishops & clergy on the "First Sunday of Lent"?

Doesn't matter, we've pretty much chucked it in favor of something called "Icon Sunday" now anyway. (Don't ask.)

Though I do know of a certain Ukrainian Catholic parish in eastern PA that reads the Synodikon with the anathemas of heretics on the Sunday of Orthodoxy at the Divine Liturgy... plus the pastor updated it to include all sorts of modern heresies.

Dear RichC,

Excellent point(s).

In actual fact, the Orthodox Church in Slovakia draws a close parallel between this Latin feast and the devotion to the Sorrows of the Mother of God as encompassed in the "Tale of the Five Prayers" by St Dmitri of Rostov that is now to be found even in the Jordanville Prayerbook!

I know a Czech Orthodox Bishop in Brno who tells me that national hymns in honour of Jan Hus are also in their Orthodox prayerbook!

The Czechs regard Hus as their national hero and even saint. Every second village, it is said, has a statue in their public square in his honour.

Even Roman Catholics there took to honouring him, so much so that the Jesuits (don't you just love them? ) "invented" the feast of St John Nepomuk and placed it near Hus's commemorative day to try and take away attention from him.

In 1963, after investigating this, the RC church did, in fact, reduce Nepomuk's feast to that of a local observance in response to all the fuss.

Russian Orthodox theologians have commented on Hus and say that, far from being a Protestant, he was hearkening back to the Cyrillo-Methodian tradition.

The Czech Orthodox Church even discovered the baptismal certificate of Hus's great friend, Jerome of Prague, and can now say with certainty he converted to Orthodoxy in Latvia. A canonization process for him is imminent. One Czech Orthodox priest I met said he would like to see his Church adopt Hus as a saint and this would help the conversion of many Protestant Hussites to Orthodoxy.

I don't know why I get off on these things, but I do. . .

Alex

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

And you would know, of course, that Aghios Nicodemos Aghioritis also translated a copy of the Jesuit devotional manual, Spiritual Exercises, which is, to this day, used by the monks of Mt. Athos?

And that he even disagreed with St Alphonsus di Liguori over the matter of the devotion to the Heart of Christ, saying it is not just "symbolic" but is truly the seat of Divine Wisdom and Divine Love?

And that there were Greek Orthodox theologians who fully understood and accepted, without being excommunicated, the western doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? (Before the time of Old Calendarism etc.).

And that there were Greek Orthodox theologians who not only borrowed from St Thomas Aquinas, but also prayed to him?

And that . . . you get the picture.

The Greek Church borrowed from the West as much as the West borrowed from the East.

Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who believe that such overlap and borrowing did not occur are not being realistic.

For every Latinization we identify and reject, there is another that is so much a part of our liturgical consciousness that we would undoubtedly fail to recognize if it jumped up and bit us in broad daylight.

Alex

OOD (officer of the deck or OrthodoxyOrDeath),

Serge, in your list above, I'll bet you could take half to three-quarters of the "Latinization"'s and replace it with "GOA".

Doubtless true. The only organ I've ever heard in an Orthodox church was at the Greek cathedral in Pittsburgh.

Rich and Alex,

In Slovakia, even the Orthodox Church includes the national patronal holiday, the Seven Sorrows of the B.V.M., on their calendars. That doesn't mean they observe it liturgically.

Wonderful. There is an icon in Russia, the Mother of God, Softener of Evil Hearts, which is really copied from the Seven Sorrows images in Poland. Our Lady, shown alone, has seven daggers around where her heart would be, but there is no heart showing.

Did you hear that the "Byzantine Serra Club" in Pittsburgh tried to replace the Sunday of Orthodoxy a few years ago with a general commemoration of deceased bishops & clergy on the "First Sunday of Lent"?

Doesn't matter, we've pretty much chucked it in favor of something called "Icon Sunday" now anyway. (Don't ask.)

Sounds like the ethos of the Ruthenian Church I remember, the one that was loath to use the word "orthodox'.

My dream-project Ukrainian church uses the filioque in the Creed but it is not afraid of the o-word.

Though I do know of a certain Ukrainian Catholic parish in eastern PA that reads the Synodikon with the anathemas of heretics on the Sunday of Orthodoxy at the Divine Liturgy... plus the pastor updated it to include all sorts of modern heresies.

Brilliant!

The Greek Church borrowed from the West as much as the West borrowed from the East.

Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who believe that such overlap and borrowing did not occur are not being realistic.

For every Latinization we identify and reject, there is another that is so much a part of our liturgical consciousness that we would undoubtedly fail to recognize if it jumped up and bit us in broad daylight.

Great points, Alex. From an Orthodox priest who lived there, I understand the Holy Land is a riot of hybrid flowers (owing to cross-pollination!) with Orthodox Arab nuns using Latin rosaries and churches with cloths that have the Sacred Heart image on them.

My jury is out on the fuss about Hus. I feel very sorry for him, like I do for Luther, and Hus was cruelly double-crossed, which is what killed him, and both had valid criticisms*, but I don't know enough about him to take him on board or not.

*I use an English Book of Common Prayer for its psalter (by Miles Coverdale) and Gospel canticles when praying the Byzantine hours the Lance Weakland way (thanks a million, Lance!). Perhaps if the Latin Church had enacted similar reforms circa 1400, the Protestant revolt never may have happened. Yes, they had some valid points.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Bless me a sinner, Reader Sergius!

Well, it's not my intention to start a devotional society in Hus' honour, if that's what you mean .

Happily, the pope has given his blessing to start the rehabilitation process for him, and we'll see where that leads.

There is a tree in the Holy Land that the Armenians believe is one to which Christ was tied during His Passion.

They say it is miracle-working and make prayer beads from its fruit.

And prayer ropes were first started in Ireland who made knotted cords.

The icon of "Semystryelnaya" or "Umyakscheniye Zlikh Serdets" that you refer to is beautiful. One version is here, hopefully there won't be a problem opening it.

http://www.russian-church.com/webimage/icons/see0121.htm

Personally, I find this icon and the icon of St Seraphim of Sarov to be of great help in finding the "place of the heart" during prayer.

I also find the picture of the wounded Heart of Christ to be of help in this regard as well.

Alex

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Reader Serge,

I am glad you found my format helpful. I must say I am quite surprised an old office prayer like yourself would even think to experiment with a different format. I had thought it would appeal most to those who did'nt have or couldn't afford an Horologion or couldn't understand the rubrics for its use. (I think you need something like a Licentiate in the Byzantine Office before you can realy understand the typikon) My goal is to eventually receive episcopal blessing for the format and publish a one volume book with all the needed texts. Something like a Byzantine version of Christian Prayer, the approved one volume Roman Liturgy of the Hours. When I finish my diaconal studies I hope to devout more time to research and compilation.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]

Father Joe,

My parish does indeed have a processional crucifix in the front right pew, although rather than traditional it is pretty latinizied in appointment. Anyways, I always wondered why it was there. Thanks for the explanation.

In Christ,
Lance

His Eminence Antonio Chedraoui, the Metropolitan of Mexico City, is often called Monsignior (in fact everybody calls him Monsignior). That's curious.

His Eminence Antonio Chedraoui, the Metropolitan of Mexico City, is often called Monsignor (in fact everybody calls him Monsignor). That's curious.

I was thinking of the US. French-speaking Orthodox use "Monseigneur' for bishops.

http://oldworldrus.com

In the context of European and Latin cultures, it would seem acceptable to call an Orthodox or Greek Catholic bishop "monsignor" using this term in light of its meaning in those places. It is a term of personal address or greeting, not so much a formal title one would as a noun, such as "The Most Rev. "Bishop" _________." In the US, the meaning of the word is different to the general public and would not be appropriate for Eastern Rite bishops.

The usage of the term "monsignor" in Europe and Latin America is far more extensive than the way it is employed in the United States.

In France, Italy, Spain, other places throughout Western Europe and many traditionally Catholic countries, "monseigneur", "monsignor", "monsenor" {sorry, I can't find how to place the Spanish marking ~ over the "n" in monsenor} and the like, are used to address all bishops, much like we use the words, "vladyka", "vladika", "kyr" "despota", etc.

The meaning of monsignor is "my lord." Vladyka means "master", despota, "ruler", kyr, "lord" and so on.

In the US, "monsignor" is used exclusively to refer to those priests who have been designated as either "Chaplains to His Holiness" or "Prelates of Honor to His Holiness." Prior to the reforms in honorific titles put in place by John Paul II, these types of monsignors were called "Papal Chamberlains" and "Domestic Prelates" respectively. Then and I believe now, the lower and higher rank of monsignor was distinguished by the use of colors on the Roman cassock. Papal Chamberlains were allowed the use of purple buttons while the Domestic Prelates were granted the privilege of using these in red. Traditionally, an enhanced "biretta" is also allowed these priests, with the corresponding piping and "pom pom" {for lack of the proper term - I don't know what this is actually called} according to rank.

To the best of my familiarity with the subject, the cincture (sash) was "magenta" in color for both ranks of priests as well as for regular bishops and archbishops. Cardinals of course, are given the red (crimson) colored biretta and use a crimson colored cincture and buttons. I believe that there is an ecclesiastical distinction made between the red color used for buttons, etc. on all prelatial cassocks and that particular shade of red called "crimson" that is only allowed for cardinals.

Of course, the color of the cassock is normally black, with the addition of the colored buttons, piping and cincture, according to rank. This is technically, worn outside of liturgical celebrations. There is also the "choir cassock" which is magenta in color with the addition of the corresponding color of piping, buttons and cincture. This would be worn under the alb at mass or with a rochet or other garment, worn by Roman bishops when attending liturgical events but not celebrating or concelebrating. Further, I believe that there is a distinction made between a "house cassock" which includes the small cape around the shoulders and a "mass cassock" which does not have this. Please correct me if I have any of the particulars wrong.

Evidently, at one time, these now purely honorary offices had practical functions, such as keeping order in the papal palace and residences, supervising servants and hired hands, acting as masters of ceremonies for papal events, etc, etc.

I do not know how they distinguish in Europe between "monsignors" who are bishops, and priests who are "prelates to His Holiness." Perhaps they use another term to distinguish these honorary priest-titles, but I do not know what it might be. Someone on this forum probably does know the answer. Perhaps Alex who is widely versed in these matters, or Serge, equally knowledgeable about ecclesiastical particularities can help. What's the word guys?

Our bishops used to frequently wear the Roman style of cassock and some still do. Even Orthodox hierarchs and honored priests have been known to wear them. It is interesting that in the Serbian tradition, priests sometimes wear a cincture over their cassock, although I believe that it was simply a cummerbund without the two pieces of silk falling to the left side. I do not know how or where this practice arose. In order to keep with what was familiar to them, the hierarch of the Carpatho-Russian Greek Catholic Diocese created a type of Greek cassock with purple or magenta trim, to be worn by their protopresbyters and archpriests, most of whom used to be called monsignors. This seems to be an attempt to innovate a tradition that would please all sides. The senior "monsignori" in their epachy still often wear the familiar Roman prelate's cassocks.

In our tradition, we have a head-gear called the "kolpak." This is unique to churches of the Ruthenian usage (Subcarpathian and Ukrainian) and is simply the Ruthenian style of kamilavka. Just as the Greeks wear the rimmed hat and the Russians, the stovepipe style, we have the eight-sided kolpak. Its origin is said to have various interpretations. I think that it is a rather wonderful piece of liturgical garb and can look very good on the right person. It is used in black for a regular priest and can have either purple, magenta or red piping for bishops, protopresbyters or archpriests. It also comes completely in these mentioned colors. Some "kolpaky" are hard and do not collapse, others are made in a softer material.

What I do not care for is the "kolpak-style" mitres that some of our bishops have come up with in the recent past. Their function is practical because they can be made to fold up for easy traveling, but I believe that as a mitre, this style does not do justice to its purpose.

Our "monsignori" also had the distinction of wearing the riassa in black, with the piping and sleeves corresponding to the color of their rank. This is also used by Orthodox prelates of the Slavonic traditions. We also have the "choral" riassa which is made completely in magenta and is to say the least, quite bright and impressive to see. The ceremony of investiture of monsignori was elaborate in our church, during which the bishop gave the new prelates the magenta colored riassa and kolpak and sometimes, the jeweled pectoral cross. It was the same service used for the elevation of an archpriest or protopresbyter. I believe that today, our protopresbyters and archpriests still use, when they want, a riassa with the corresponding colors or even the choral magenta colored one.

It is interesting to note that to be made a "monsignor" was an extremely coveted prize for many priests and still is in some places, although many dioceses and eparchies have downplayed it in recent years. Today, some Latin Rite bishops no longer ask Rome to elevate their high ranking priests to this honor. But, it is still used in many places.

In our church, we are trying to down play this purely Roman title in favor of our traditional priestly-honors. These differ somewhat according to culture. The only reason I could possibly see for the use of the honor of "monsignor" in our church would be that it is supposedly an honor that comes directly from the Pope, who, like it or not, is the visible head of all Catholic churches, Greek, Latin or whatever. In this regard, it is similar to what the Greeks call "Protopresbyter of the Ecumenical Throne" an honor that is bestowed only by the Ecumenical Patriarch. I am not though, endorsing the continued use of monsignori in our Greek Catholic Church as something authentic, simply pointing out its significance.

Another priestly title that was used widely in the past and has had some resurgence lately in the US Ukrainian eparchies, (and perhaps others) is that of "canon" but I will leave discussion of this rank for another posting.

Priest Joe

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Joe ]

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father!

As I understand it, the distinction is made with "Most Reverend Bishop Monsignor" and "Reverend Father Monsignor."

In addition to being a wonderful Priest, you really do love religion and theology!

A wonderful, surprising, even if assumed, combination . . .

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Father Joe,

A great resource for a lot of the externals you spoke of with regard to the Latin Church is the book The Church Visible: The Ceremonial Life and Protocol of the Roman Catholic Church, by James Charles Noonan. It covers almost everything you wrote about, and then some...

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father!

I don't know if the book our Catholicos Mor Ephrem mentions contains a description for the title of "Dekan" as used in the Ukrainian Church.

It was said among us that anyone with a bit of a pot-belly had a "Dekansky vocation."

It was really funny when someone said that. But I guess one had to have been there . . .

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex