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However, since we cannot commune with our fellow Orthodox brethren, should we venerate their saints?

For the second time, yes! The Russian Catholics do! Both privately and in church.

http://oldworldrus.com

Not an unwritten rule, but a formal teaching of the Catholic Church. As a community we venerate more than simply those on the calendar. Public veneration includes - 1) those on the calendar 2) those not on the calendar but canonized by the Catholic Church, 3) those beatified by the particular Catholic church we belong to, 4) those beatified for a religious order or monastery at their places of worship, 5) those whose cult of veneration has existed "from time immemorial".

On the point of the Russian chapel of the Latin Archdiocese of New York, (or the Russian chapel of the Latin Particular Church of San Francisco) one can look at their practices and make assumptions, but it would be a stretch to say this is a definitive and universal statement by the Catholic Church rather than a tiny, individual community applying economy.

K.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

Dear Mother Sharon,

Yes, Fr. Peter Galadza is related to me by marriage, but you don't have to be related to me to visit me . . .

Daniil knows him fairly well and I am sure he will convey the very best wishes of the entire Forum to the Reverend Father Professor and his Presbytera, Olena, in Ottawa.

Mnohaya Lita!

Alex

On the point of the Russian chapel of the Latin Archdiocese of New York, (or the Russian Chapels (sic) of the Latin Particular Church of San Francisco) one can look at their practices and make assumptions, but it would be a streach to say this is a definative and universal statement by the Catholic Church rather than a tiny, individual community applying economy.

Your description of the Russian Catholic churches is damnable — dripping with contempt for these Orthodox-oriented people who, while they are administratively under the Latin ordinaries, as are small non-Byzantine Eastern Catholic congregations in America, canonically are not Latin.

It's really not clear to me why you have not been reprimanded more, or even suspended or ejected from this forum. Your behavior has been consistently outrageous and is nothing new, and yet you keep right on trucking, insulting Orthodox, "transritualists' and, in general, everyone who doesn't agree with your New Deal liberal agenda. You go along your merry way, firing off pointed zingers in a true troll fashion.

Go away.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Daniil,

Yes, you raise a very interesting question here.

Does not your parish of St Elias commemorate all the Orthodox saints? I thought Father Pastor once told me he uses(d) the St Herman Orthodox Calendar.

St. Michael's in Welland, Ontario also has a number of Orthodox saints on its walls and there was even an article in the "visnyk" of Sts. Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago by Eugene Ivankiw that openly attacked the commemoration "of such typically Russian saints as: Dmytry of Rostov, Innocent of Irkutsk, John of Siberia and even, would you believe, Herman of Alaska."

The problem was that if the author of that article didn't like those commemorations on the grounds those named saints weren't Ukrainian - then he obviously wasn't aware of the fact that they were ALL Ukrainian and that St Herman signed his signature using the Ukrainian "G."

I say this because I am aware of the practice of the Russian Catholic Orthodox, but there are Ukrainian Catholic parishes who do this also.

Fr. Serge Keleher at St Seraphim of Sarov's used the St Herman Calendar regularly and read out the names of each and every Orthodox saint listed there (except for the commemoration of the "return to Orthodoxy of 3 million Uniates" feast, of course).

Add to this that Rome seems to be adding the names of new Orthodox saints to its universal calendar including St Seraphim of Sarov, Sergius of Radonezh and Gregory Palamas.

So, can you help me out here?

Christ is Baptised!

In the Jordan!

Alex

But, Daniil, if our Church offically recognizes the Sacraments of another, whether intercommunion is permitted or not, doesn't that validate a particular Saints cannonization and veneration? By this, of course, I mean publicly. I agree, it is more open for private devotion.

Dmitri

Dear Serge,

I was reading your post to your dear friend, Kurt, and you are right.

As a matter of fact, the icon of All Saints of Russia that the Our Lady of Fatima Chapel has (and sells) is approved directly by Rome itself.

It was the Holy Hierarch Andrew Sheptytsky who petitioned Rome to formally approve all the Saints of Rus' for public veneration by the Russian Catholic Orthodox Church of which he was in charge.

That formal approval came from Rome in 1904. St Seraphim and other Russian saints who were locally venerated before their glorification were included as well which is why the Russian Catholic Orthodox venerate them as full Saints following their formal glorification.

The principles underlining that approval seem to be applied in other cases of Orthodox canonizations by other Particular Catholic Churches who venerate later saints.

In fact, the Roman Catholic Church is always represented at great Orthodox glorifications, the prelates reverence the icons of the newly glorified Orthodox saints and take away copies of the icons that are made available to them at the ceremonies.

Sounds like Catholic Church approval to me, as Fr. Serge Keleher once related.

Alex

Dear Serge,

Yes, you are right again, Great Russian Sage!

Insulting other people's Churches, Rites and traditions is terrible and I too don't know how we at the Forum put up with those who engage in such activities.

A Happy Theophany, GRS!

Christ is Baptised!

In the Jordan!

Alex

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Alex,

Post-crash and especially the past day or so you really seem to have picked up an anti-Orthodox attitude.

I never called the Novus Ordo churches part of a Church they in fact canonically don't belong to.

The troll is playing his "they're not really Byzantines (it's my birthright so shut up); they're just Latins in drag' game.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

I really don't know how you can say that I can ever be "anti-Orthodox" unless by that you mean that if I critiqued one or two issues held by some individual Orthodox implies this.

Interesting. I've been called a heretic for supporting John Meyendorff (and that is serious since I'm already a heretic for being a Byzantine Catholic).

Well, one troubling thing I have noticed is that certain Orthodox feel that if you don't agree with them 100% - then you are not Orthodox or even anti-Orthodox.

But if you feel that I am - I apologise, I don't mean to be.

Sometimes certain Orthodox get my goat and so I get cute on the forum. It's my way of venting.

And I prefer that way to any other way.

But I do feel offended by what I think is your uncalled-for comment.

I am hurt not only by what you say to me, but to others and about things which are "taboo" for Catholics, of whatever Rite.

I am also hurt by your overall attitude of summary condemnation of anyone who questions The Truth as you see it.

Sorry, but I find that intolerable and have no desire to participate further in this Forum ever again.

Again, I'm not blaming you exclusively, I have a lot to do with all this, I'm sure.

God forgive me a sinner and bless you always and forever.

Alex

Alex,

Thanks for your defense of my point that the Russian Catholics officially venerate all the Russian Orthodox saints.

I was referring to your baiting on the New Skete thread — your apparent malicious enjoyment of seeing Orthodox make a mistake. I actually agreed that 'doxing doesn't guarantee a person will reach theosis; we aren't double-predestination Calvinists like the Dissenters who colonized Massachusetts, 19th-century American Evangelicals or the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) today, nor are we once-saved-always-saved Evangelical sectarians like the PCA and others.

I criticize the abuses in the RCC because I care. If I were malicious or didn't care I wouldn't be here.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

More appropriately related to another thread, but:

Alexios,

I don't understand all of the antagonisms, differences of opinion, etc., which seem to be rooted in the use of NO mass. Obviously the whole issue is outside and foreign to my experience and I certainly have no opinions of my own on the issue. Actually, I have just skimmed over most of these posts for obvious reasons.

One thing I am sure about, however, is that Holy Saint Benedict, probably while sharing a repast with the brethren, or maybe even (my little fantasy) entertaining Greek monks from Calabria, referred to St. Basil as "our father." Now, there is true Christian synergy---love and respect.

Dear Alex, if you leave the forum, we will lose some of that synergy. Besides, the Orthodox look to you
as a interpreter of Roman Catholicism through an Orthodox prism. Without you, at least some of us Orthodox who are cradle Orthodox will be hard pressed to understand much of the information posted here, or even worse, we might very well misinterpret it and....you know!...the fur will fly.

Bottom line: You can't leave!

See ya soon,

FG

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Free Greek ]

Alex,

If you are still reading posts here, please consider joining the "cineast" list, which has many of the merits and less of the faults that might be found here. If you are not familiar with them, email me privately.

God bless you and God bless Canada. (Or is it "God bless Your Gracious Queen'?)

Kurt

All Saints of Russia, Pray for Us

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

+Lord have mercy!!

Dear friend Alex!

Dear friend Serge!

I must say that I really do consider both of you as friends, and that I feel I benefit so much (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who benefits!) from the presence of *each* of you on the forum.

I know the forum has been especially heated lately, and I don't quite know why, but I am praying for God's peace, patience, and forgiveness for all of us here! I do hope that things get back to "normal" around here soon!

Alex, what will we do if you leave? A vacation, perhaps, might be good to bring you some rest, but *please* don't stay away forever!

Love in Christ,
Liz

P.S.- I mean all of this in love! Please don't get mad!! <hopeful smiley>

+Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Serge,

Thank you for putting in another good word about the Russian Catholics!

Yes, the three Russian Catholic parishes in the U.S. do not have their own bishop (as is understandable given their small numbers) and so fall under the care of other ordinaries. (We did, however, have our own exarch at one time, and who knows, we may again in the future!) As Serge noted above, other small groups of Eastern Catholics are in similar situations.

Being in the care of other ordinaries hasn't seemed to have affected the o/Orthodoxy of the Russian Catholics, though; in fact, they tend to have a reputation of being very appropriately Eastern and quite o/Orthodox! I agree that their situation is indeed unique, and some aspects of it not necessarily the present "norm" among Byzantine Catholics, but in some respects (and sometimes even for that reason) it I think it might be good to look to them for some examples!

In Christ,

God bless you all,
Liz