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Dear Teen Logo,

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think Methodist holiness traditions have more in common with the Eastern Churches than anyone else.

Go East, young man . . .

Alex

Gracious is better. Charitable is better.
Great or small. Specific or non-specific.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I am the foolish fellow whose blog post started this whole mess. I wanted to drop by this board for a couple of reasons...

First, I wanted to offer my apologies to anyone who may have been hurt or offended by anything I wrote.

Second, I had been told by those supposedly in the 'know' that the new Byzantine parish would be named after Saint Elizabeth the New Martyr. As Fr. Chrysostom himself has said, that is incorrect. It will be named for Sts. Cyril and Methodius.

Again, my apologies to all...

In Christ,

Sean

Sean,
Welcome to the forum! A very extended and often dysfunctional family.

A lot like an Eastern parish!

Don't apologize for anything you've published. You had things on your mind and you put it out there, good for you!

God's Grace to you on your spiritual journey!

Michael
that sinner

Dear Father Chrysostom:

Could you ask Archbishop Chaput to "loan" you to Winston-Salem?

We need you here!

With warm regards,

ZT

Dear Zoe,

Thank you for your kind words and sentiment. There are, indeed, lots of people who think that I should be "lent" to a place as far away from Denver as possible!!

What most people in parishes still do not seem to realize is that they have a responsibility for priests- they need to pray for us and to love us..., even if they don't like us. Complain, fight, gossip- they are very good at these things-but to pray and to love ain't on the top of their agendas. And that's what is needed if the Church is to be experienced as sobornost and communio, rather than a club or an institution.

Fr. Chrysostom

No truer words have been spoken than the fact that priests need to be prayed for and cared for by the people. Being a priest, and responsible for the well-being of a community of people is an awesome (and frightening) responsbility. Being a bishop is probably ulcer-inducing.

But I still am uncomfortable with the designation of the community as: "Russian". I have a number of Russian-Russian friends here in DC (to a person members of either the OCA Sobor or St. John the Baptist ROCOR parish). Discussing the developments in Denver with one of them, his perspective was: "Well, what's Russian about it?". (His great-grandfather was a consultor to Tsar Alexander.)

And this is what makes me uncomfortable. The "name" should describe the reality. If there are no Russians, especially (Byzantine) Catholic Russians involved, what makes the parish community Russian?

I know that as a Greek-American (50%), I would be confused if I were invited to visit a "named" Greek-Greek Catholic parish and I was the only Hellene within a few miles.

Certainly we Easterns in the US are struggling (to put it mildly!) with the relationship between ethnicity and theological spirituality. The Ruthenian metropolia has clearly made the decision to be "American" but with clear connections to Carpatho-Ruthenian roots. Services are in American English, but the recension and the music are decidedly Ruthenian. (And so are the hierarchy!!)

The Ukrainian communities are dyed-in-the-wool Ukrainian; and heaven help anyone who tries to be anything else. The Greeks, confronted with more than 50% non-Greek intermarriages, are recognizing the problem of ethnicity/spirituality, are trying to be more American and accommodating, but it's a hard sell, especially in those areas where there is still a lot of back and forth with the old country. The Antiochian/Melkite communities are also trying to be accommodating and succeed in some places and fail in others.

So, while I applaud any effort to spread Constantinopolitan spirituality as a legitimate and viable pathway for those who are "at sea" with contemporary American religiosity, I am still disquieted by the "Russian" designation. One major fear is that our Orthodox brethren (of the Russian persuasion) will consider this yet another attempt to "sheep steal" by masquerading as Russian while being very much something else.

Blessings!

And how many folks in the nearest RC parish hail from Rome?

Within the Catholic Church "Russian" is a canonical designation, not an ethnic or national one. It refers to the "Rite" or more accurately, the Ritual Church,which includes a specific tradition of liturgy, spirituality, theology and even canon law. To call a community "Russian Byzantine", then, means that the community roots itself in the tradition of Muscovite Christianity as this developed over the centuries and has come down to us in a form that is possible at this point of time to exist within the communion of the Catholic Church. Our Orthodox brothers do indeed often have a hard time understanding Church affairs in a non-ethnic/national way.

Speaking as a non-Russian member of a Russian Catholic Parish (Our Lady of Fatima in S.F., CA) that has very few Russians (two), I can tell you, Dr. John, that we have been struggling with the very questions you raise. We have been forming a mission statement for the parish, because we feel we are maturing as a parish, and moving away from our previous reputation as more of an Eastern Catholic Center. I think what we have ultimately decided that we will describe ourselves as an American Byzantine Catholic Church, that is services in English and members of various ethnic backgrounds, that follows the Russian tradition (all our service books are from the OCA or ROCOR, we occasionally throw in some Slavonic, we wear Russian vestments, and other traditions).

This is something we really struggled with, especially since to be a member of the Russian Catholic Church in the U.S. today means some degree of isolation. We are a Byzantine church in a Latin archdiocese, with the closest Russian Catholic parish 500 miles away (much farther if you're in the NY parish as Dave is). Do we become defensive and try artificially to become more-Russian-than-thou, or do we ignore the fact that our spiritual heritage is Russian. Neither is very satisfactory, and we struggle to find the balance.

Finally, in terms of worrying about Russian Orthodox seeing us as "sheep-snatchers", one must look to the history of the Russian Catholics. Our first and only exarch, Bl. Leonid Fedorov, was on very good terms with both St. Tikhon and, most of the time, St. Benjamin Met. of Petrograd. At the risk of sounding too insensitive to MP concerns , we need not always to walk on eggshells, but instead follow Exarch Leonid's example and work also for reunion from within the Russian tradition (but not "uniatism"). We are who we are, and we can't change that. Rather than backing away from what we are, we need to instead encourage that spirit of Bl. Leonid and do everything we can to be examples Orthodoxy in union with Rome, with the aim of one day being in full union with our brother Orthodox of the Russian tradition. We must pray for a leader or spokesperson of the Russian Catholics who can achieve this without proselytizing or further 'uniatism'.

BTW, these are all my own thoughts, not the position of OLF parish.

Hi JBOSL,
That's fine, the parish is maturing and the congregation is evolving into something other than Russian. It seems a normal development, after all. All immigrant groups eventually assimilate into the general population, contrary to what some people think!

You are not sheep stealing, Russians brought the congregation to San Francisco and if anybody at all wants to join into it it's their right, I'm sure you're not roaming the airports looking for slavic-looking people to drag in there!

But is your parish producing vocations? If not, there could be trouble down the road. Due to the delicate situation between the jurisdictions it might not be possible to affiliate with another jurisdiction, I doubt that there is even a procedure for that. So you need to always be able to procure a priest and deacon.

You could still retain the Russian recension, it's not patented!

The Aleuts in Alaska are still using the Russian recension. They don't need any Russians.

Now I know that properly your parish belongs to the Russian Catholic church. Without a hierarchy it must be a difficult situation. I am still in favor of a unified Byzantine church for all North Americans, but it really seems like an impossible dream.

God Bless you in your work, good luck to your parish

Michael

But the Aleuts were evangelized by Russians. They didn't read about it in a book and decide that it sounded like what they were looking for. They are merely continuing to practice Christianity the way they always have.

Hi Lemko,
Could you elaborate on this a little bit? I don't get your point.

Michael

Not to pick on the new Denver Russian Catholic (not "Russian") community, but they are the subject of this thread.

From what was written here previously, it's made up of:
1) the pastor, Fr. Chrysostom, a priest of the Russian Catholic Church;
2) former members of Holy Protection B.C. Ruthenian parish (i.e., Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics);
3) Latin/Roman Catholics.

Group 2) were either born into the Ruthenian Church or were evangelized by the Ruthenian Church at some point later in life. In either case, these are people evangelized by the Ruthenian Catholic Church and presumably worshipping in the way of the Ruthenian Church.

Group 3) were evangelized by the Latin Church and may have been worshipping in the way of the Ruthenian Church via their attendance at Holy Protection parish, or they may even be heretofore completely unfamiliar with Byzantine Christianity.

Now, allowing for the possibility that there are in this community born Russian Catholics and/or people evangelized at some point by the Russian Catholic Church -- certainly a small number in any case, realistically speaking -- it's still safe to say that the vast majority of this community--Groups 2) and 3)--was not evangelized in any way by the Russian Catholic Church and have not been worshipping according to the Russian Catholic tradition. Where, then, is the living connection to the Russian Catholic Church? The pastor and a tiny handful of people, if that.

The Aleuts, on the other hand, as long as they have been Christians, have worshipped in the Russian Christian tradition (mixed with their own local customs, of course) of the Church that evangelized them. Their connection to the Russian Christian tradition is clear. I don't see the organic connection between the Russian Catholic Church and the fledgling community in Denver. I think that's what Dr. John has said, and better than I. But I don't see any similarity to the Aleut history there.

These for me are sociological questions and not spiritual ones. I'm sure that God will use this new parish for all good, as He has the other Russian Catholic parishes in the U.S., and it will further the Kingdom on earth; may it be so!

Hi Lemko,
OK, I get your point. I thought you were addressing the San Francisco Russian situation.

I don't really know the facts on the Denver situation. And you raise valid concerns.

I don't know how such decisions are made, you could probably tell that I am always pushing for missions to be started no matter what jurisdiction. It's sort of a fetish of mine now!

I do see how people can become attracted to a faith through reading, and want to embrace it fully, that is precisely how so many evangelical ministers become attracted to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. The deeper they study the early church, it's beliefs and traditions, the more they become attracted to the authentically Apostolic churches.

But on to your other point (I am not disagreeing with you here) about the Denver congregation. I don't know if the assumptions you make are correct, I mean I can see how that could be. I just don't know it, I don't know the people and their stories.

Let's create a hypothetical situation. Let's imagine that you and I were involved in mission work. We could have a group called Byzantine Extension Society or something like that. We would raise money and distribute it where it was needed and support missions.

Then someone sends us a petition to start a parish in Jackson Mississippi! "Huh?" we think "what is going on in Jackson Mississippi?"

So we do a study and find out that there are twenty families within 45 miles of the airport that can legitimately claim to be Eastern Catholic, and they are underserved. Some poor bloke has gone to all the trouble to put the petition together pladging support for a mission if we would help them start it.

So we go for it, and we have to find a jurisdiction that can take responsibilty for it. So six families are Arabic and five are Ukrainian and we ask those two churches for help first. Neither one can oblige us but the Byzantine Ruthenians (in this hypothetical situation) say they might be willing to help if a priest can be procured and we wind up getting some Italian Roman Catholic priest who is willing to try, it's the best we can do.

See how messed up it can be in our church with all these fractured jurisdictions just trying to get some people the Divine Liturgy? And the upshot is if they don't attract some new people quick the whole project will collapse under it's own weight. Is it worth a try? Yeah I think so, but the critics will be legion.

I don't know how many Ukrainians and Ruthenians this Denver Russian parish will attract but I don't see it as raiding the other churches. Could it be? Yeah but I don't know that.

Right now the Romanians could be founding a parish in the area and we don't know about it so we are not upset. We are upset about this because we happen to have stumbled on a blog.

That's all I can say
Michael