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The imposition of ashes replaces the penitential rite.

Dear Diak,

Forgive my double, confusing post above!

When I find the book, I'll look up the reference!

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DAVIDinVA:
[QUOTE]The imposition of ashes replaces the penitential rite. /QUOTE]

I kinda figured that. Thanks David.

Yesterday, an Ash Wednesday Prayer Service was held at my college's chapel. It was officiated by the local Catholic priest and the college's Baptist/non-denominational/non-liturgical tradition chaplain. Surprisingly, both clergymen imposed ashes during the service.

One of my friends asked my why I didn't go up and be ash-ed, and when I said its because I don't start Lent for another few weeks, she said, "Oh, are you one of those... what are they called... umm... you have Christmas late and all, right?"

Dave

glad you held your tounge. I might have popped off.
Much Love,
Jonn

Alex, one of the priests (Fr. Eustachy Susalev of blessed memory) was Old Rite and part of the St. Petersburg Russian Catholic movement. The community itself there was by and large mainly of the Synodal liturgical practice (Frs. Tolstoy, Deubner, Zerchaninov et. al.) who were in the "Solviev circle", but there was also Fr. Eustachy and his Old Rite contingent.

The community would alternate between Old Rite and Synodal services depending on who was celebrating. The Federovs were themselves from the Synodal tradition. Blessed Leonid himself was formed in the foremost seminary of Synodal usage at the time, St. Petersburg Theological Academy.

But undoubtedly Bl. Leonid did love and appreciate the Old Rite, concelebrating in it after his ordination with Fr. Susalev and possibly Fr. Emilianov. But the Old Rite contingent, at least in St. Petersburg, was not the majority.

The letter you mention of greetings to the Tsar was written by Fr. Eustachy, who of course wanted to get in his pitch for the Old Rite. And indeed, the response letter by Tsar Nicholas was used as their "get out of jail free" card for several years.

I have a personal historical interpretation that is a bit deeper regarding this point. I posit that another reason the community identified themselves as entirely Old Rite was to deter from the wrath of the ROC authorities who despised the priests who had left the Synodal ROC. The hierarchy cared far less at that time about smatters of Old Believers here and there than the "traitorous Uniates".

Fr. Emilianov's entire congregation, on the other hand, are another story. They were entirely Old Rite but they were located in Luhansk/Lugansk oblast far from St. Petersburg.

You didn't say anything about my reference to the Fast of Nineveh.

Dear Diak,

You raise a fascinating point with respect to how the Synodal and Old Rite EC's would go from one Rite to another - as indeed occurred in the ROC among the "yedinovyertsy" some of whom were glorified as New Martyrs, as you know.

I think it is great that we can today see both Rites as legitimate parts of the one East Slavic Orthodox heritage!

Yes, the Fast of Nineveh - I have the Assyrian prayers for it and I usually observe it - I've forgotten when it falls this year - would you know? Is it too late to observe it?

I also understand that the Copts begin the Nativity Fast three days earlier than others in honour of the miracle of St Samaan the Tanner . . . (?)

(I just love your avatar! The Cross St Pavel is wearing is, if I'm not mistaken, the special Tsar Nicholas II Cross, is it not? I have a copy from a French monastery that I wear under my clothing - with a priest's blessing of course! I wear it on top when I teach religion - I know that's unorthodox, but I do it anyway).

Alex

I've been enjoying this thread - but strangely enough it has also been disturbing me

I seem to be caught between East and West more and more nowadays, and as a result I am looking more closely and deeply at traditions and customs.

Take Advent - I followed the Eastern Fast - and this caused a few problems - none unsurmountable - but I found myself having to justify my actions.

Now here we are fasting again. It really seems no time since the last one

However Ash Wednesday

This has caused quite a lot of discussion in our Parish - at the Liturgy Group Meeting in January [ we actually plan liturgies - not really how they are conducted - you can't mess with rubrics even though some would like to ] but at what time they will be held on 'special' occasions . There had been problems at Christmas and the Parish had complained.

So for Ash Wednesday we had planned the usual - 9.30am, 12.30pm and 6pm - the rationale being that non workers would be able to attend at 9.30 leaving the other 2 Masses for workers. Part of our problem is that we have a daughter Parish about 7 mins walk away and we now have 2 full time Priests and 2 part time Priests to serve both Churches. We had indicated that we thought that the daughter Church should have it's customary 2 Masses as well. We also agreed that Ashes would be distributed at all Masses and not at any other time of the day - too many folk come for the 'magic' of the imposition of Ashes - we then see them at no other time.

However cometh the Sunday before Lent the announcement was made as to what Services would be held - and a large number of jaws hit the ground. There would be an 8am Mass in Holy Cross [ Mother Church ] and then again at 9.30 am and then 1 at 10.00am in Our Lady of Consolation and again there at 7pm. This did not please folk and the conversations afterwards were - to put it mildly - interesting . Now a bit of background about this. We never have a 7pm Mass on a Holyday of Obligation - the reason being that it's too late for workers - they do not want to go home and then have to go out again - we have favoured 6pm and it has always been well attended - it is at that time from Monday to Friday and gets up to about 150 present. We used to have a daily 8 am Mass again well attended but for the last 6 Months this has been stopped - the excuse is that with only 4 Priests we cannot have 3 Masses in Holy Cross and 1 in Our lady of Consolation. The 8.00am Mass was always said by the Priest whose day off it was - he was then free from about 8.30.

Then I read the comments in the Bulletin for the week . After the announcement of the masses for Ash Wednesday came
Wednesday is Ash Wednesday. Ashes will be distributed during masses which are at 08.00 , & 09.30 in Holy Cross and 10.00 and 19.00 in Our Lady of Consolation Church. ( No 6.00pm Mass in Holy Cross Church) The days after Ash Wednesday are like preparation days : to get us in the mood , to get us started , to get us fit to begin formally the lenten journey on the First Sunday of Lent .

During Lent we shall have an extra Mass at 8.00 am from Monday to Saturday in Holy Cross Church

Oh boy - we don't start Lent till the following Sunday - and I in my innocence thought we started on Ash Wednesday.

Well - I had no car yesterday so decided to go into the Cathedral for Mass at noon - they always have a noon Mass for Holidays of Obligation - so off I went by public transport and got there about 20 mins early - well time for prayer . But changes there too - no noon Mass - it's at 1pm. OK that's the one I went to and it was packed - I mean really packed standing room only because of all the workers who could not get to Mass in their own Parish.

I will now openly admit that I did not really appreciate it We were told to give ourselves a pat on the back because we had gone .Even in the homily there was no real mention of Lent - a time of penance and fasting in preparation of what was to come. Oh the Liturgy was correct - can't fault that but it did not seem right that there was no teaching on fast and abstinence.

Oh yes - I got my Ashes and went to Communion - but - it just did not feel right. But in a way it seemed too late for that - my Lenten Journey has started .

What will I do next year - I really don't know - the way I feel right now I will probably not go

Anhelyna

LOL

I know, I shouldn't laugh because it is such a sad comment on our near invisibility to the broader Christian community, but I can't help but picture this tongue-tied young woman, racking her brain and thinking

"what the heck are 'they' called anyway? 'Orthodox'? No, that's Jews ... oh whatever"

Many years,

Neil, who wishes we had a message icon that vacillated between sadness and laughter

Neil,

It is slightly sad, but at least she could pinpoint *something,* albeit superficial, about the Orthodox Church!

Dave

Dear Dave,

That's a beautiful Eastern icon of the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary that you have in your avatar!

Alex

Not all eastern rite catholics avoid ashes.
The Maronites have an ASH MONDAY ceremony same thing as the RC just on Monday for whatever reason.
Supposeldy it goes back to a Jewish tradition but it never caught on in the Greek based rites.

...and not all western rite catholics do celebrate Ash Wednesday. At the Hispanic rite Great Lent begins on the Monday after the first Sunday of Lent (Roman Rite). During the First Sunday of Lent the Gospel of the Temptations of the Lord is read just as at the Roman rite but the liturgical colour is white, since fast has not jet started. I have attended this Liturgy at my Diocese Cathedral in Spain several times. Ash is not used. I think that a similar tradition can be found at the Ambrosian Rite.

The text (in Latin and Spanish) of this mass (Frist Sunday of Lent or Carnival Sunday) can be found at http://www.arquired.es/users/mrgreyes/ermita/. By the way, the translation, that is not the official one found in the Missale, is taken from the Doctoral thesis of the Romanian Orthodox priest in Madrid.

Forgive my ignorance, Francisco, but what is the "Hispanic rite"? I haven't come across that one! Is it part of the Catholic Church or of the Orthodox, or what? Thanks!