www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Which Church Should I Join?

WOW! Just surfed in. Read some crap here from someone.

Hey, fella! Yeah, you, the anonymous hide-behind-dark-shadows guy named "Churchwork" (spelled CHURCH KROW if you can dig out the meaning like a septic tank). I am sure if you mix it up with some numerology tactics, you can conclude the exact time of the End. When you do know it, let Jesus know. He claims that not even he knew.

Man, its great having you around. At least someone has a clue. About what, I don't know.

What kind of Christianity are you from? Why do you worship a book? From what I gather, the Newbie Testament wasn't even around for decades after Pentecost. Don't you think your form of book idolatry isn't Christian? Why do you place a book above the faith?

As far as I know, there is nowhere in your Bible - which ever version you abuse - that ever mentions the names of the books that belong in it. So, I guess I can just simply ignore your quotes from the Book of Revelation, huh? It is never mentioned by the Evangelists, or Paul, or Peter, or ...

So I don't buy your propheteering, especially someone who prefers to worship a book. You quote books that Jesus never quoted. In fact, Jesus never quoted anything from the New Testament. So how do you know that the books you are quoting are "Biblical?" Who told you? Where in you Bible Idolatry classes/tracts does it clue you in?

Joe

This makes for good reading, good deliverance too which will change your life if you have an ear to hear,

How to Preserve the Local Character of the Churches
Rethinking the Work, CFP, 102-107

Since the churches of God are local, we must be careful to preserve their local character, their local sphere and their local boundary. Once a church loses these, it ceases to be a scriptural church. Two things call for special attention if the local nature of a church is to be safe-guarded.

In the first place, no apostle must exercise control in any official capacity over a church. That is contrary to God�s order, and destroys its local nature by putting the impress of an extra-local minister upon it. No apostle has the authority to establish a private church in any place. The church belongs to the locality, not to the worker. When people are saved by the instrumentality of any man, they belong to the church in the place where they live, not to the man through whom they were saved, nor to the organization he represents. If one or more churches are founded by a certain apostle, and that apostle exercises authority over them as belonging in a special sense to him or his society, then those churches become sects, for they do not separate themselves from other Christians (saved through the instrumentality of other apostles) on the ground of difference of locality, but on the ground of the difference of instrumentality of salvation. Thus apostles become the heads of different denominations, and their sphere the sphere of their respective denominations, whilst the churches over which they exercise control become sects, each bearing the particular characteristic of its leader instead of the characteristic of a church local.

The epistle to the Corinthians throws light on this subject. There was division amongst the believers in Corinth simply because they failed to realize the local character of the church and sought to make different apostles�Paul, Apollos, and Cephas�the ground of their fellowship. Had they understood the Divinely ordained basis for the division of the Church, they could never have said, �I belong to Paul,� or �I belong to Apollos,� or �I belong to Cephas,� for, despite their especial love for certain leaders, they would have realized that they belonged not to any one of them, but to the church in the locality in which they lived.

No worker may exercise control over a church or attach his name to it, or the name of the society he represents. The Divine disapproval will always rest on the �church of Paul,� or �the church of Apollos,� or �the church of Cephas.� In the history of the Church it has frequently happened that when God has given special light or experience to any individual that individual has stressed the particular truth revealed or experienced, and gathered people round him who appreciated his teaching, with the result that the leader, or the truth he emphasized, has become the ground of fellowship. Thus sects have multiplied. If God�s people could only see that the object of all ministry is the founding of local churches and not the grouping of Christians around any particular individual, or truth, or experience, or under any particular organization, then the forming of sects would be avoided. We who serve the Lord must be willing to let go our hold upon all those to whom we have ministered, and let all the fruits of our ministry pass into local churches governed entirely by local men. We must be scrupulously careful not to let the colouring of our personality destroy the local character of the church, and we must always serve the church, never control it. An apostle is servant of all and master of none. No church belongs to the worker, it belongs to the locality. Had it been clearly seen by the men who have been used of God throughout the history of the Church, that all the churches of God belong to their respective localities, and not to any worker or organization used in their founding, then we should not have so many different denominations to-day.

Another thing is essential for the preservation of the local character of the church�its sphere must not become wider than the sphere of a locality. The current method of linking up companies of believers in different places who hold the same doctrinal views, and forming them into a church, has no scriptural foundation. The same applies to the custom of regarding any mission as a centre, linking together all those saved or helped by them to constitute a �church� of that mission. Such so-called churches are really sects, because they are confined by the bounds of a particular creed, or a particular mission, not by and within the bounds of locality.

The reason why God does not sanction the establishing of churches which combine companies of believers in different places is because the Divinely-ordained basis for the forming of churches is thereby destroyed. Any �church� formed with a mission as its centre is bound to be other than local. Because wherever there is a centre there is also a sphere, and if the centre of the church is a mission then obviously its sphere is not the scriptural sphere of locality but the sphere of the mission. It clearly lacks the characteristic of a church, and can only be regarded as a sect. In the Purpose of God, Jesus Christ is the centre of all the churches, and the locality is their sphere.

Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a centre for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the centre of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local; and whenever the Divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the Divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another centre apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second centre becomes the controlling one. It is contrary to human nature to stress what we have in common with others; we always emphasize what is ours in particular. Christ is the common centre of all the churches, but any company of believers that have a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their centre of fellowship, will find that that centre becomes the centre, and it is that centre by which they determine who belong to them and who do not. The centre always determines the sphere, and the second centre creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not.

Any thing that becomes a centre to unite believers of different places, will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that centre and excludes all who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God. Therefore the children of God must see to it that they have no centre of union apart from Christ, because any extra-local union of believers around a centre other than the Lord enlarges the sphere of fellowship beyond the sphere of locality, and thus the specific characteristic of the churches of God is lost. There are no other churches in Scripture but local churches!

The Benefits of Independence
The Divine method of making locality the boundary line between the different churches has various obvious advantages:

(1) If each church is locally governed, and all authority is in the hands of the local elders, there is no scope for an able and ambitious false prophet to display his organizing genius by forming the different companies of believers into one vast federation, and then satisfy his ambition by constituting himself its head. Rome could never sway the power it does today had the churches of God maintained their local ground. Where churches are not affiliated, and where local authority is in the hands of local elders, a pope is an impossibility. Where there are only local churches there can be no Roman Church. It is the federation of different companies of believers that has brought such evils as dabbling in politics into the Church of God. There is power in a federated �church,� but it is carnal power, not spiritual. God�s thought for His Church is that she should be like a mustard-seed on earth, full of vitality, yet scarcely noticed. It is federation that has brought the Church of today to the state of Thyatira. The failure of Protestantism is that it has substituted organized churches�State and Dissenting�for the Church of Rome, instead of returning to the Divinely-ordained local churches.

(2) Further, if the churches retain their local character, the spread of heresy and error will be avoided, for if a church is local, heresy and error will be local too. Rome is a splendid illustration of the reverse side of this truth. The prevalence of Romish error is because of Romish federation. The sphere of the federated churches is vast, consequently the error is widespread. It is a comparatively simple matter to �quarantine� a local church, but to isolate error in a vast federation of churches is quite another proposition.

(3) The greatest advantage of having locality as the boundary of the churches is that it precludes all possibility of sects. You may have your special doctrines and I mine, but as long as we are out to maintain the scriptural character of the churches by making locality the only dividing line between them, then it is impossible for us to establish any church for the propagation of our particular beliefs. As long as a church preserves its local character, it is protected against denominationalism, but as soon as it loses that, it is veering in the direction of sectarianism. A believer is sectarian when he belongs to anyone, or anything, apart from the Lord and the locality. Sects and denominations can only be established when the local character of the church is destroyed.

In the wisdom of God He has decreed that all His churches be local. This is the Divine method of safeguarding them against sects. Obviously it can only protect the Church against sectarianism in expression. It is still possible for a sectarian spirit to exist in a non-sectarian church, and only the Spirit of God can deal with that. May we all learn to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh, so that both in outward expression and inward condition the churches of God may be well-pleasing to Him.

Have links, will travel.

I don't buy your form of idolatry.

Joe

OK. I get it. This bible idolatry tract was written by the Leader of the Nation of Islam, right? Any mention of the number 9? or it was taken from a pamphlet on embryology.

All this talk about spheres and centers [sic] is confusing. What if there is a cube present? Anything on cubes?

Who said that it had to be about spheres? Did the bible authors of the Newbie Testament know about the world being a sphere? What happened to the four corners of the earth?

I like squares ... and cubes. I think the author of your bible idolatry tract got it all wrong. He/she didn't read the Newbie Testament right. Then again, how do we know which books from the Newbie Testament should be read? I am still trying to find an authoritative list from the Bible. Can you help me. This sphere-cube dilemna is driving me nuts. Do you know of any good parables from Jesus about spheres and/or cubes?

Cheers to cubes! At least they are mentioned in the Gospel of Anaximander.

Joe

Troy,

This and the other statements from your previous post still beg the question. What if the leader of such a "local church" is in fact a false prophet? What if they teach new doctrines that are not found in any other church teaching? How could you ever speak against them - after all, they are locally governed, right? They are led by what the local populace thinks, feels, and believes. Where do you find such a structure in Scripture?

Let me also ask you this - how do you even know you have faith? How do you know you have "ears to hear?" Simply because it feels good or justifies yourself? i mean no attack or insult here, but, my friend, i do fear for your soul. Many heretics have claimed the name of Christ or the words of Holy Scripture, but that does not mean they were correct. If you find yourself saying or believing something that has no historical precedence amongst teachings that have been affirmed by Christians for centuries, then you are indeed in a very precarious place. The Holy Spirit didn't start working in our modern times, nor did He stop working after the apostles reposed. Surely He did not speak falsely all this time, no?

Peace to you,
the_grip

Watchman Nee falible.
Stephanos I who holds the infalible faith and delights in it, because it is a living and reigning person in the Church. If you dont know his name its Jesus!
BTW Brothers its great to be back.

Brother Stephanos, its good to HAVE you back too!

Blessings,
Aidan Michael

I won't address the mindlessness of some comments like cubes and circles, lol.

It is not possible to have a false prophet as a leader, because remember, the informal apostle selected the elders of a particular locality. It was on the authority of the apostle to do this and we know the apostle is authentic because they get these questions right,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/needtoagree.htm

There will be some in fact that try to copy Biblical locality, but they are easily identified either by operating under a central hub or by simply their teachings, not becoming of an apostle. That is the purpose of the questionaire to determine. Eventually there will be 12 apostles that will establish this foundation. I and 2 others presently have begun it. This is all hard to accept I know but it is the condition building in the last days. It has been in corporation styles since after the first two centuries pretty much.

If the locality goes haywire and begins teaching false teachings, that is why there is more than one elder, that is why they are chosen by apostles and an apostle will come back to that locality and have stern words to say so that it is the apostle and gifted in the church in agreement against the elders than are doing things wrong. Because the elder being appointed is in Christ he will be convicted. He rose up as the one to do the work of eldership and the apostle was right in choosing him, but if he falls, as brothers and sisters we are there to pick him up. No one is exceptional.

I have faith because my spirit has been quickened and the Holy Spirit is in my spirit. I do fear for your soul particularly because you deny this with no basis. You fear for my soul with no basis. Do you see the difference between us? Praise the Lord. History is grounded in the first two centuries. Man's traditions for the love of corporation-style systems and a poisoned spirit of dissension is your basis. How you need to let the tradition's of men die on the cross for you do in fact exceed the boundary of the local churches. You can't see this sin of yours because men's traditons are so entrenched in you, and apostles through the centuries, there have been some, that operate according to Biblical locality, but they have no operated in corporation style churches for if they had their consciences would have immediately been convicted. How Satan can muster this deception century upon century so that we accept it as the truth now by man's traditions in such low standards trying to worship God with one's own strength. Think about it. It is not really too hard to accept either. In the first centuries you may accept a cleanly way of operating according to locality, and then as sin infiltrates the church as it has to turn it into corporations, national churches, people churches, doctrinal divisional churches, sinful churches. But then as the consummation of this age continues the kingdom of God increases in measure through locality, and through that, brings about the Last Week as man now reveals himself as being ready to be received. Praise the Lord! Locality is that very important piece of the puzzle, in which God will not return unless this comes into fruition.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/churchsetup.htm

It is hard for those to accept Nee's most excellent work, a work that I for one can not find even a single error as of yet, and nor can anyone else that I have observed. Yet he is just a man, a teacher, an apostle, a prophet, and an evangelist. His ability and giftedness was several, yet just a man able to sin.

Before we judge someone we ought to base it on something instead of the wind. I only judge those at byzcath based on their false teachings like mary idolatry, corporation constantine idolatry, historicalism having no faith in the millennial kingdom, intermediary priesthood judaized Christianity, written code, physical buildings and earthly promises (eg. over Peter's tomb). These are vanity of vanities things the flesh could only do. How unspiritual and devoid of life.

My prayers go out to you for deliverance from these traditions of men.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Christianity.htm

It seems to me that you hold Watchman Nee as your own pope, Mr. Churchwork. You seem to hold his every opinion and all of his wonderful writings as infallible because when anyone questions it, you spout off about them being "error-free", which would mean that they are infallible. Do you see the irony in this?

It's no surprise that you find no "errors" in his works, because you will not listen to anyone whose view regarding his works that differs from your own - all you do is post links to his writings. It seems to me that a man who cannot think for himself and post responses from his own heart rather than replying by posting links is a man who cannot think for himself since he has been blinded and his mind is clouded by nonsense.

Perhaps your prayer will be heard by God and He will answer your prayers by delivering you from the traditions of the man, Watchman Nee.

I know that many on this forum have been praying for it.

In Christ,
Aaron

Don't blame. Watchman Nee is not a pope, nor my pope. Popes are not Scriptural either. Watchman Nee was an apostle, a gift to the church. Why does that offend you? Why blame?

Your complicated reasonings are yours alone and I pass them back to you. I only know that I have not found a mistake in Nee's writings, nor have you, so until someone does, why blame?

Isn't man's mind brutal. He blames everything. His rationalizing mind will conct any blame possible that is not reality just so he does not have to accept the truth?

In comparing Nee's writings to those who say things against him, I compare, just as you can start thinking for yourself also, to see which is right and compare to the Word to confirm which is true. Take another look...
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm

There is something wrong here at byzcath. There is no respect for the Word of God, just constantly wind blaming like mindless zombies. That is not the way of the faith in Christ.

Who taught you to conduct yourself this way for it was not God?

SO, you admit that you are Judging.

Hvae you inflicted us with your debates here since there is no one left to debate you on your own forum?

Dear Troy,

I've been reading the articles you cite. How can we know that Watchman Nee is indeed truthfully interpreting the Word of God?

At what point did the Christian Church fall from Grace in its history?

Was this a complete falling away until such time as people like Watchman Nee came and showed us the error of our ways? (In this case, you yourself speaking on behalf of Watchman Nee's perspective.)

If Christ told His Church He would be with it always and sent it His Holy Spirit, how can we accept your view that the Church is in need of anything else?

Alex

Lol, I like this quote from one of Troys forums (or rather rant pages thin with replies):(bold added by me for emphasis on key parts)
Or these two from his section titled "Types of Posters We'd Like To Discourage":
This one reminded me of someone on here from the title of "Drama queen" on his forum...
Hmm, funny...
Yeah, that gave me a good chuckle to read when I think about his posts on other people boards..... :rolleyes:

In His Name,
Stephen

Hmmm. I like this one.

Sam