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#47866 01/31/03 03:53 PM
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No searching, just waiting.

#47867 01/31/03 06:06 PM
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If you think this post will answer your question, you'll have to wait more frown wink

Well, there's a big difference between those who covered her heads because of Turkish influence and those who did it only in Church (as most Orthodox women and traditionalist catholics do). Those christian women under Turkish occupation who adopted the head coverings, were veiled all the time, in the streets, just like the muslims, I think it was quite like a cultural tradition and they felt "more integrated to the society".
(About those Albanians in the North, I was told that they wore the veil all time, not only in Church.)

About head covering inside the Church, it was my understanding that it was a sign of modesty, similar to the nuns who also cover their heads all the time, and in this case women who go to Church to confession or to see a priest do so too (that was the explanation gioven by a Catholic nun, an elder nun).

#47868 01/31/03 07:52 PM
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Dear Remie,

Again, I'm not so sure that we can draw conclusions from limited examples.

In Northern Albania, for example, the two communities were largely separate. Muslim villages and Christian villages. While I certainly find it plausible that Christian women would wear a covering in obeyance of Ottoman law when descending to markets in a mixed zone, such as the cities of Miredita or Shkodra, I would simultaneously want to see what they were wearing when in their own isolated villages and farms before attributing the wearing of the scarf to obeyance of Ottoman law.

Geography in Albania really isolates and made the presence of Ottoman law nominal at best in many locales. Remember that in Montenegro, in zones inhabited by Slav and Albanian Christians, they were openly independent! Many Chrtistian areas of Albania, North and South, repeatedly flaunted that law and dared the Turks to "come and get us, if you can." The south remained at least 50% Orthodox and suffered innumerable brutalities as a result! My own people are from such regions in the south and some of us have even inherited personalities that prove the point! Forgetting my own irrascible temperament for a moment, we have my grandmother [aka "Komandante"] who, still alive and very much in charge at 92 years, was born when Turkish soldiers still patrolled the streets of her city. And my wife, well, her village had not one Muslim until the Communists moved a few in, and since the Communists fell, it again has none, except in the cemetary (don't worry, they died naturally and were good friends with her family)!

My point is that this fanatical resistance would certainly have exhibited itself through something as simple to put on or remove as a head covering. [When the Ottomans show up, put it on.] And certainly the prime place to simultaneously flaunt their Christianity and their objection to Ottoman rule would have been in the Churches. And since the end of Ottoman rule, why wouldn't we have seen a newly-liberated people throw off the oppressive head coverings?

To ignore this historical reality and fail to reconcile it to the fact that nearly all women wore, and many still do wear, head coverings in Church, is to ignore logic.

With love in Christ.

#47869 02/01/03 12:49 AM
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I wonder if there could be other practical factors to wearing a scarf or other head covering in many places, not just in church, such as: when doing physical labour and/or dirty work keeping the hair covered is easier then washing it (and it keeps it out of ones eyes). Especially in times and places where easy access to hot water and shampoo is limited. Then there's warmth in colder climates or dryness in rainy ones. In many old pictures from Europe, the British Isles and Scandinavia both men and women are shown with some sort of headgear.

Just random thoughts from my history readings.

#47870 02/06/03 05:14 AM
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Very interesting.....

#47871 02/06/03 09:48 PM
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Yes, I would think that it's obvious that men and women often wore and still wear head coverings as protection from the cold and dirtiness of various labors.

In this discussion, I think that we can speak of "traditional dress" in the context of what people would wear to church, or a public feast, a wedding reception, a celebration, etc. I think that that (traditional dress) is where we will see examples of women wearing coverings outside of Church in the unoccupied territories during the Ottoman reign (again: Montenegro, Southern Italy, and Sicily).

I'm saying that they mostly wore them in these unoccupied territories, even outside of Church, and therefore shouldn't automatically think that women who wore coverings in occupied territories did it out of compliance with Ottoman laws.

In Christ

#47872 02/09/03 07:28 PM
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One other thing that occuried to me: everyday and "special occasion" clothing that is common. Looking at American History and clothing for example, one would have a cap, scarf or bonnet for day to day wear and, if possible, a Sunday/Party one. Men, also would have a "good" hat if it could be afforded.

I read some years back some older women in Orthodox churches who don't wear scarves anymore in church. They are faithful women to whom the scarf was presented as a Old Country, cultural thing when they were younger.

#47873 05/21/03 08:02 PM
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I have recently decided to cover my head in church. The decision came after months of research and contemplation. The idea came to me after sitting in on some classes on the Divine Liturgy. The realization (after 36 years!) of what was happening during DL made me feel as though I should be veiled in order to show my humility and respect to God in his house. I knew a mantilla was not for me, and my mom and others told me that a babushka was appropriate. I have found some authentic ones for reasonable prices (E-Bay is a great source as there aren't many babas around here to sell them at yard sales!). I don't tie them under my chin, but behind my head, like a kerchief. I have gotten a few comments, but I feel better during Divine Liturgy. By the way, my husband could care less if I wear it.

#47874 05/21/03 08:41 PM
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Felix,

Welcome to the Forum!

Yes, I browsed your website and visited the head coverings link.

Logos Teen

#47875 05/22/03 03:35 PM
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Dear Felix,

Yes, I think that a babushka is actually rather "cute" and is not offensive to any woman who wears one in church.

My friend who was just ordained an Orthodox priest has a Chinese Orthodox wife, who is a medical doctor, and who wears a beautiful babushka that truly enhances her femininity, as well as her modesty and piety!

Alex

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