www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How Many Are Thinking About Leaving?

Deacon Lance,

Thanks for the link again. I saw nothing "inclusive" or bothersome in the GO liturgy. Why is there so much fear about ours? Have we no faith in our learned clergy or do so quickly believe rumor and speculation?

I guess that sounds somewhat like hubris to me to say only you are living the great commission while others are not. I would not be comfortable saying such a thing.

Dear Elias,

There are Orthodox and then there are ORTHODOX!

And we have some really ORTHODOX-looking people in the UGCC!

One of our priests way back when wanted to start a "Brotherhood of St Mark of Ephesus" so Orthodox was he . . .

Something about no compromise in matters of the Orthodox faith . . .

Alex

If you never do anything that would make you uncomfortable you might not advance. Yet, don't if you wish not.

Dan L

I agree with you, although I might phrase some things differently, the GO liturgy is not bad.

There is so much fear and disquiet about the proposed revised liturgy, because it is a departure from that model, embracing 'contrived' inclusive language to the point of distraction, changing rubrics, and re-organizing and editing the text.

The fact that we are even debating about whether the English language has changed or not, shows that it has not changed, and since there is no consensus of opinion upon the present state of the use of the generic masculine in English, it seems odd that the Church's worship should be altered in order to conform it to what may be only a passing fad. Clearly, the liturgy should not be the place to use a questionable form of the English language.

The fact that socalled "inclusive language" is ambiguous and gives rise to various Christological and anthropological errors, is reason enough to avoid using it in the translation of theological and liturgical texts.

I have read modern translations of the Fathers of the Church in classes at school that have used socalled "gender neutral" language and often times such texts promote, albeit unintentionally, the Nestorian and Monophysite heresies. An example of this type of problem took place during the Good Friday / Annunciation services in the Ruthenian Church this year. One of the prayers referred to Jesus as a "human being," in order to avoid the "offensive" word "man," but this alteration is heretical. Christ is not a human being, because there is only one act of being present in the incarnate Logos, i.e., the divine being of the hypostasis of the Son of God. Thus, Christ is not a human being, or a human person; instead, He is a divine being and a divine person, who has assumed a human nature and become man. The act of subsistence of the incarnate Word of God is the very hypostasis of the eternal Logos, and it is that divine act of being that actualized the human nature of Christ. Now, this is only one example of the theological ambiguities brought about by the use of socalled "inclusive language." This ideologically motivated form of English also obscures the unity of man in the One Man, Christ Jesus; for as St. Augustine (and other Fathers) was fond of saying, "All men are one Man in Christ Jesus," and "all men become sons of God, in the only begotten Son of God." To alter the language of prayer in order to accommodate a contemporary political movement is dangerous, and is ultimately harmful to the Church. That is why the Vatican instruction (i.e., Liturgiam Authenticam) which I quoted above, addressed this very issue.

Amen.

Well said!

Not only was it a fad, I think that it is a fad that is already past its time. As my niece would say, "Uncle, that is so '70's."

Contrived changes to language, as a way of making points subtle or rude, are not prudent. When you place them in the context of prayer, they are an affront.

the unworthy,

Elias

Well guys, let's just sing a verse of the old Protestant hymn:

Onward Christian government employees,
Processing off to conflict resolution.
With the symbol of the God-person,
jogging on before.

I agree that if something like this is common, then there's a problem. However, I betcha it's not so bad when all is said and done.

"man" was offensive before, I'm sure. It's OK now, though. reminds me of an old battle I had once about March: Womyn's Herstory Month. As if "history" is derived from "his"! "historia" is even feminine in the old languages, too!

We shall see.

So if a woman gets a divorce, does she get a histerectomy?

Of course it's bad. We are dealing with the faith of the Church, and saints (like St. Maximus the Confessor and others) died rather than compromise that faith. Heretical prayer leads to heretical belief.

I don't know what to make of some of you people. I suggest that you go over to the Evangelization forum. There you will either get a new vision for the future of this beloved Church or you will be convinced that you ought to leave ASAP. Either way you will be off dead center.

Dan L

Dear, in Christ, Dan,

I think you may be on to something, and evangelization is much more important than this distracting and disappointing argument. What a waste of time and energy! I pray that soon, the revisionists, will see that what they are proposing is problematic.

I'm sure you agree, that if we are not preaching the "true faith", and witnessing to "right worship" our evangelization will be worse than useless.

the unworthy,

Elias

I must admit that I don't see how your post applies to anything that I have said in this thread. Nevertheless, I would simply note that doctrinal orthodoxy is vital to true evangelization. Thus, the language used both in catechesis and worship must be, as Pope John Paul II said, "free of doctrinal ambiguity and ideological influence." [Pope John Paul II, Ad Limina Address to the Bishops of the Western United States, 4 December 1993]

God bless,
Todd

Dear Todd,
The Liturgy is at the center of our Christian lives, and I have not the least desire to leave that center. It's not dead; it is the source of our life and strength. That's why it is vitally important.

Incognitus