www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How Many Are Thinking About Leaving?

Originally posted by domilsean:
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The way he explained it to me, with regards to "inclusive" language, was: read the Greek, read the Slavonic. In the original language, the words use are inclusive! As a linguist, and knowing a bit of Greek, I can see what he means. Because when the original translations from Slavonic to English were made, many were done by non-native English speakers, so they were rife with English errors. In addition, words such as "man" and "mankind" were in fashion years ago, but are really no longer used. I doubt the Liturgy will replace Father and Son with Parent and Offspring! You guys are freaking out about nothing.

The new translation is supposed to clean up the theological problems and reconcile the Greek and Slavonic, and present it in modern English. So, would you rather a liturgy full of theological errors that sounds pretty and uses "He loves mankind" and such; or a liturgy that's theologically sound, reflects the [b]original Greek AND Slavonic, but isn't maybe as "poetic" and has "He loves us all" and such?

The petty reasons people find for leaving the Church disgust me! [/b]

In many languages there exist nouns and pronouns denoting both genders, masculine and feminine, together in a single term. The insistence that such a usage should be changed is not necessarily to be regarded as the effect or the manifestation of an authentic development of the language as such. Even if it may be necessary by means of catechesis to ensure that such words continue to be understood in the "inclusive" sense just described, it may not be possible to employ different words in the translations themselves without detriment to the precise intended meaning of the text, the correlation of its various words or expressions, or its aesthetic qualities. When the original text, for example, employs a single term in expressing the interplay between the individual and the universality and unity of the human family or community (such as the Hebrew word 'adam, the Greek anthropos, or the Latin homo), this property of the language of the original text should be maintained in the translation. Just as has occurred at other times in history, the Church herself must freely decide upon the system of language that will serve her doctrinal mission most effectively, and should not be subject to externally imposed linguistic norms that are detrimental to that mission.

In particular: to be avoided is the systematic resort to imprudent solutions such as a mechanical substitution of words, the transition from the singular to the plural, the splitting of a unitary collective term into masculine and feminine parts, or the introduction of impersonal or abstract words, all of which may impede the communication of the true and integral sense of a word or an expression in the original text. Such measures introduce theological and anthropological problems into the translation.
[Liturgiam Authenticam, nos. 30-31]

Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:

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Originally posted by Rilian:
[b]

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Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
Eastern Catholics have the best mission in the world, greater than RCs or Orthodox. We are called to martyrdom.

What?

Our mission is to help bring the East and West together. Whether we succeed or fail we will cease to exist.

Dan L [/b]

Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
I'm afraid you aren't understanding what I'm saying. When communion arises it will be like the Church is in reality and how it existed prior to 1054. If it isn't the union won't happen. When it does we won't be just another little sui iuris Church. We will be fully Orthodox Catholic as will the entire East. I did not join a 15,000 member denomination that had no vision. I joined a Church which is what God wants for the entire Church and is working diligently to see that vision come to fruition.

Dan L

Our mission is to help bring the East and West together. Whether we succeed or fail we will cease to exist.

The use of socalled "gender neutral" language, as opposed to standard English, is divisive and will alienate many people.

When the original text, for example, employs a single term in expressing the interplay between the individual and the universality and unity of the human family or community (such as the Hebrew word 'adam, the Greek anthropos, or the Latin homo), this property of the language of the original text should be maintained in the translation. Just as has occurred at other times in history, the Church herself must freely decide upon the system of language that will serve her doctrinal mission most effectively, and should not be subject to externally imposed linguistic norms that are detrimental to that mission.

Originally posted by Rilian:

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Our mission is to help bring the East and West together. Whether we succeed or fail we will cease to exist.

What do you think the mission of Orthodoxy is then that makes it a lesser one?

I'm genuinely curious.

Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Professor Dan,

Please accept a belated "Happy Aldersgate Day" re: May 24th!

I wrote a little speech where I made mention of "Wesley Day" and I just realized I forgot to wish you a good one!!

Alex

Have you considered that linguistic norms have changed? This is what so many here fail to grasp about Language: It changes! Every day! Saying "He loves us all" is not a betrayal of "He loves all mankind" or "He loves all men", it's just what we should properly report the speech as in modern English! This might change in 10 years, it might not.

Originally posted by Deacon Lance:


For those interested, this is the official English text of the Divine Liturgy for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. The "inclusive" language in this text is similar to what will be in our revised text. So much for distancing ourselves from the Orthodox.

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc.asp