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It is still a McCarthyite Tactic

Thank you, Brian. God be with you.

Robert,

My only point was that our two communions have already had a wide ranging discussions of many topics, including sacraments, the Eucharist, Marian devotion, Baptism, etc. it has been going on for decades and objections to the Roman Mass has never been raised to my knowledge. You seem not to dispute that but suggest 1) because I am a gay man, my observations of these objective points should be discounted, and 2) you 'suppose' at some future point in time, the Orthodox will ebgin objecting to the Roman Mass. The second point, I nor anyone else can disprove, but ohe nas to wonder why the silence for so many decades if it is a significant issue.

I could also suppose that at some future point the Roman Church will object to the lay control of parish property in my Church, but, as an ecumenist, I would hope the Roman Church or her members who claim to be ecumenists, do not go around looking for new problems.

Axios

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Axios:

I want to very honest with you. Orthodoxy and homosexuality, as with any other sin, ARE incompatible. If you have not found a Father Confessor to help you be cleansed of this affliction I am sorry. I remember when I was younger and was going through similar feelings; I remember I was trying to live two lives - one for the Church and one for my lust. I was attending St. Herman's Antiochian Orthodox Chapel in Palmer, Alaska. The priest there had such a love for souls that he did not shy from even denying people the antidoron after communion because of their sins. He had found out that I had been living the gay lifestyle. After Divine Liturgy that day he pulled me aside and said these words, I will never forget: "Someone has told me you have been living in a lifestyle of sin, the gay lifestyle...In the Orthodox Church this is a grave matter and as a priest of the Holy Orthodox Church, for the love of your soul, I cannot admit you to receive the blessed bread after Communion, (I could not receive Eucharist because I am a Eastern Catholic). He also said: "I am doing this until you have stopped living in sin and totally commit yourself to living a holy life and until you have spent time with me in counsel and spiritual direction." I could not stop from crying I went into the Church after eating at the Deacon's house alone and wept before God and cried and wept and cleansed myself. I fell on the floor and poured out my soul before Him, for He had found me out and no longer would allow me to live in my sins. Through the efforts of a holy priest and the intercession of the Theotokos I was cleansed and no longer have feelings toward men and now have a girlfriend who I love and cherish. Glory to God for all things! The Grace of God through an Orthodox priest changed my life and now I have hope! And so do you! You can be cleansed and it is a cleansing in the love of God - like a fire in the belly. God never stops to seek the repentance of His Children. I am not ashamed of my testimony; I am just thankful to God that he rescued me in time before it was too late.

May the Mother of the Light grant you healing tears of repentance and may she rescue you from the sin that cries to Heaven for God's wrath.

Your friend in the Theotokos:


Robert Horvath

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Robert,

What a powerful, inspiring story that was very admirable for you to make public in hopes to try and help Axios. Thank you for sharing it and I will hope and pray that it helps Axios and perhaps others that perhaps are not so boisterously public about living a lifestyle of sin. God Bless you and all who have been afflicted by such things. May the Theotokos look over you and help keep you from temptation forever.

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Robert,

What a powerful, inspiring story that was very admirable for you to make public in hopes to try and help Axios. Thank you for sharing it and I will hope and pray that it helps Axios and perhaps others that perhaps are not so boisterously public about living a lifestyle of sin. God Bless you and all who have been afflicted by such things. May the Theotokos look over you and help keep you from temptation forever.

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!

Well things are not as simple as what you state here!
May Our Lord give us understanding of the Gay Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Christians in our midst and true love.

Peace in the Theotokos,
Brian

Robert:

Thank you for your courageous, humble, eloquent, and loving testimony - a kerygma of brilliant light.

cix

herb.

All,

Thank you for your advice and concern. And now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast...?

Axios

Dear Robert,

I read with great interest your postings. I have a couple of questions arising from them.

"Even Pope Paul VI himself declared that his Mass was patterned after the liturgy of Calvin."

I have never heard a reference to this particular statement of Pope Paul VI. May I have the source of this information, please?

"And it does not take a greenhorn in liturgical scholarship to see the similarities between Protestant Liturgical forms and the New Revised Roman Sacramentary."

Prior to the Second Vatican Council and following it, the great majority of protestant churches, in my experience and to my knowledge, did not and do not refer to themselves as liturgical churches. To what Protestant Liturgical forms do you refer?


Thanks,

Steve

Back to the topic at hand: As for the presence of women and girls at the altar. If the canons allow it and the bishops allow it, I have no problem with it. Even should women once again be ordained deacons in our Churches, even if the time should come when women priests and bishops are permitted, I would submit myself to the Church on that matter no matter my personal feelings on this issue. Unlike many posters on this forum, I have faith in the ability of the Holy Spirit to direct the Church and leave this political stuff in the very capable Hands of God. If God wishes it to happen, then who am I say to no just because I think it is wrong. Don

"Even Pope Paul VI himself declared that his Mass was patterned after the liturgy of Calvin."

I don't think Paul VI said that (actualy he didnt) but Jean Guitton, his personal friend told this: "The Pope decided to create an Ecumnenical Mass, acceptable for all, in order to make it coincide with the protestant liturgies".
The Protestant Minister Taize (one of the architects of the New Mass") also said: "this is a great tryunph for the catholic church. Now the non-catholic communities will be able to use the same Prayer Books, now it is theologically possible".

Certainly this mass does not clearly follow calvinist patterns, but it's similar to the first reformed masses of Luther and Cramer (they eliminated the same prayers that were present in the Old Mass). The external appereance of the rite may look like a modern protestant service but this is a different thing.

The problem is that this represented a rupture with the Eastern Church, it's impossible, even for modern catholics, to notice this difference.

Again, if the Eastern Church is to be respected, let it speak for itself. We have not declared any rupture.

Certainly, some of the features of the Mass brought it into some of the same practices as both the Protestant and Orthodox chruches (venacular, communion in both forms, etc.)

But I think an indication that some of the sources of Remie's posts may be off would be the reference to the 'Protestant Minister Taize'.

I assume this is a reference to Brother Roger, the founder of the Ecumencial (Catholic-Protestant-Orthodox) Monastery of Taize. This is a beautiful ecumencial witness, praised by the popes, and deserving of its own discussion.

BTW, Brother Roger has since been received into the Catholic Church

Slava Isusu Christu!

Axios: I gave my testimony because I wanted you to know that there is hope. We cannot be deified without daily metanoia; you know much about the Church, as I did when I met Father Michael at St. Herman's, but when the Holy Spirit convinced me of my sin through that holy priest I realized that without repentance all of my knowledge only served to condemn me, because I knew and therefore was accountable to Christ for my knowledge of His Laws and those of His Church. As a brother in Christ I must warn you that if you are living in the gay lifestyle and receiving the Eucharist in the Holy Orthodox Church you are committing a grave sacrilidge and you must confess these things to a priest immediately; what if you were to die and had no recorse to a priest? Today is the day of salvation. I cannot see into your heart only God can, but it is my duty to help you to realize this is a grave matter. If you are living a celibate life and are living according to the life of the Church than Glory be to Jesus Christ! I pray that you are my friend! May we be continually be filled with the spirit of Repentance and Holiness. I bear you my testimony me being worst of sinners.

Regarding Pope Paul VI's Sacramentary, again although it can be done reverently by loving orthodox Latin priests who hold the true faith, unfortunately it can also be used by Protestants and liberals: the heterodox. All Apostolic Liturgies have been confessional. Orthodoxy is explicated in its highest form in the Liturgy. Pope Paul's ecumenical Missal has too many loopholes and although it does have just enough of what can be termed "Catholic" in it to be valid it is nevertheless inadequate. It should have remained a liturgy ad experimentum and therefore optional, but instead became Law and the Standard Liturgy for Roman Rite priests. We will have to wait for the correction of this abuse. What really got me on this soapbox was when a friend of mine said to me one day, " You know Robert how would you feel if they tore out your ikonostas, had Divine Liturgy facing the people, had women and girls on your altars, dramatically modernized and stripped your Liturgikon and Service books of its traditional teaching, added innovations and modern liturgical texts, removed the ikons down to a bare minumum, stopped using incense except on Nativity and Pascha as per the decision of a "liturgy committee" made your Byzantine Churches into abstract sacred spaces, removed your sacred tradition of folk plainchant in place of said liturgies and on and on and on." I looked at her and said now I know what you are going through. They did this to the faithful of the Latin Church! How would we feel? We have had latinizations before, but what if this was done officially? My heart would break if this was done to us; that is what so many Latins are going through now, God help them and may the Theotokos watch over their faith.

In Christ,


Robert

Robert,

Just so you know, I confess and commune regularly.

Back to the Roman Mass, again, you and others are entitled to your opinion. Our Orthodox bishops have not raise the Roman Liturgy as a problem. Therfore, whatever objections you or tothers have, we Orthodox should not be drawn in to your disputation within the Catholic family.

Axios

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert Horvath.:
[QB]Slava Isusu Christu!

I must warn you that if you are living in the gay lifestyle and receiving the Eucharist in the Holy Orthodox Church you are committing a grave sacrilidge and you must confess these things to a priest immediately; what if you were to die and had no recorse to a priest? Today is the day of salvation. I cannot see into your heart only God can, but it is my duty to help you to realize this is a grave matter. If you are living a celibate life and are living according to the life of the Church than Glory be to Jesus Christ! I pray that you are my friend! May we be continually be filled with the spirit of Repentance and Holiness. I bear you my testimony me being worst of sinners.


This is between Axios,his priest and God NO ONE ELSE!
DROP IT!