www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Totally Confused, please clarify

Dear Iliana,

Wow, I wish I could understand Spanish better, I am probably going to repeat the things Yuhannon says and look foolish! He's a tough act to follow.

I was thinking of your question as to "why not just Catholic" and I am struggling to respond. It would help if we knew what "just Catholic" meant to you and each issue could be dealt with individually. Since we cannot be sure I will do the best I can in my own limited way.

I will try to make this simple and my examples will be few, I will not do justice to this very important and complex subject. You probably know most of this anyway, I hope I will be forgiven for any omissions on my part.

First, let us understand that the church of Christ was never uniform in practice, even from the first days. I remember when I was learning about the faith as a boy I was told that the Roman Catholic church was the same everywhere, the same sacraments and the same beliefs. Most importantly, I was told that you could go anywhere in the world and participate in mass, and understand what was going on. I believed this and it made me proud. I remember telling these things to my own children as they were growing up.

So let us understand that in my mind Roman Catholic meant Catholic. It was the real church established by Christ and fired up at Pentecost! So also Catholic meant Roman Catholic, and it was very easy to confuse the facts about the church because the people teaching us knew very little about the rest of the church themselves. If we had thought to ask the questions, I doubt that there would have been a satisfactory answer.

But the church grew from the days of the Apostles, and afterward, following the trade routes to many distant lands. Saint Thomas is known to have gone to India, and Peter went to Rome. This growth continued generation after generation, in each new place the liturgy was introduced in the form it was known some place else, and communities far apart from each other had traditions that were not quite the same. Still, the faith was one, and the bishops maintained contact with one another and with the most prominant bishop in the region, the Patriarch. The Patriarch was the ultimate pastor for an entire region, and his office would have that authority based first upon the apostolic foundation of his church and also due to the prominence of the city.

In the west of Europe before Constantine the faith was planted by individuals from many places in the east, and a mix of the early forms of liturgy were being introduced all over. Several liturgical rites developed in the different areas of the west and local councils of bishops helped standardize the practices of those churches.

Over time, the individual churches were converted to the practices at Rome, this was not an easy overnight process but required many generations. In those days the uniformity of practice must have been high ideal, it was their way of just being Catholic. I believe that many people (not all) throughout Europe wanted to have the same liturgy as the Patriarch at Rome and so the opposition was probably not very strong. Perhaps the process was so slow people hardly noticed! As the missionaries were introducing Christianity to other parts of Europe it was the newer form of the Roman Rite they were introducing.

Interestingly, when Spain was conquered by the moors the Spanish church was isolated for 700 years. Only the small states at the northern end and near the Pyrenees participated in the reforms of the liturgy that made the Roman rite the standard. The native Iberian rite (we call Mozarabic) was preserved under the Caliphs. As the Moors were driven out during the reconquest the liberated churches were converted to the Roman Rite. An exception was made at Toledo where the Mozarabic rite has been preserved in a few churches. I think it would be wonderful to visit one of those old churches!

The Rites of the west are:
Liturgy of Rome
Liturgy of Saint Ambrose [Ambrosian rite]-Milan (suppressed to limited use)
Liturgy of Iberia [Mozarabic rite]-Toledo (suppressed to limited use)
Liturgy of Gaul [Gallican rite] (suppressed)
Liturgy of Celts [Celtic rite] (suppressed)

Possibly some others, also some religious orders had special uses allowed them.

There were also Byzantine churches in central Europe that were converted to the Latin rite, and Byzantine churches in Italy, some of which are still Byzantine but many have been converted to the Latin rite.

So as we can see, the ideal of having all Catholics practice one tradition under one name has been around for a long time. As the church made contact with distant and almost forgotten sister churches like the Saint Thomas Christians of India and many others, there was an ideal in the minds of many missionaries and prelates to convert the churches to the Latin Rite, for them it was a natural progression and a genuinely good thing to accomplish. But this turned out to be a huge mistake, it was offensive to the brothers and sisters of those churches and damaged the faith and culture of many. Many people fell away, and churches independent of the Roman church were established.

Rather than promote unity among Christians everywhere, policies like that were hurting the church and fracturing the local churches, and creating animosity.

Now it must be recognized that Apostolic churches anywhere that would unite with the Catholic communion must be respected as real churches in their own particular way. It is wrong for one church to take over another and impose it's foreign ways on the people. For example Melkites and Maronites are different from each other, and even though they live in the same general area they must both be respected as particular churches, and remain unmolested. In other words it would be wrong to force them together or make one of them subject to the others prelates.

In countries like the U.S.A. there has been immigration from many places and most of the Particular churches have been established here. Although they are small they are entitled to the respect of their traditions and we as Catholics should celebrate the diversity of the Catholic Communion of 22 churches!

So. streamlining is out! Diversity is in! That's the way it must be.

I hope that this helps you understand

Michael

Iliana,

As I read your question - which you've asked twice now - again, I'm less convinced that either Alex or I have really answered it. You're wondering less who we are than you are why we are?

Why does it make any sense for Alex to call himself 'a Byzantine Ukrainian Catholic', Yuhannon to call himself 'a Maronite Catholic', me to call myself 'a Byzantine Melkite Catholic', Latin Trad to call himself 'a Latin' or 'a Roman Catholic', and, so on? If, indeed, we are all 'Catholic', why don't we limit ourselves to that as the statement of our belief and present ourselves to the world as a united entity? Why retain the external trappings of an earlier time and leave ourselves open to being misunderstood as two dozen individual Churches - appearing to the world as a Church divided within itself?

I can't presume to speak for all Catholics of the Eastern or Oriental Churches, individually or institutionally, and I've sat here for some time now, trying to put my personal perspective into words that would have broader application - but, I keep coming back to a belief that it has already been better expressed by another. I've posted this before and some may yawn and think, 'not again', but I re-read it and I think it speaks to your query better than I can.

The Courage to be Ourselves

(Christmas Pastoral Letter of Archbishop Joseph Tawil, of blessed memory, then-Exarch and later first Eparch for Melkite Catholics in the US.)

1. OUR INCOMPARABLE PATRIMONY
2. OUR MISSION TO ROMAN CATHOLICS
3. ECUMENICAL VOCATION OF EASTERN CATHOLICS
4. A DANGER TO THIS MISSION: THE GHETTO MENTALITY
5. A SECOND DANGER: THE ASSIMILATION PROCESS
6. GRATITUDE TO OUR FOREFATHERS
7. TOWARD THE FUTURE
8. FINAL THOUGHTS

To our beloved children, the priests and faithful of the Melkite Church in the United States, peace in Christ our Lord, greetings and blessings.

Christ is born - glorify Him!

With great joy we greet you on this day when the only begotten Son of God - he who is our God before all ages - took our human nature and appeared to us as a little child. What a joy it is for us to remember this great event which affects the lives of everyone coming into the world and to glorify Christ's love for men with the words of the Nicene Fathers, "For us men and for our salvation he came from heaven. He took flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary and became man."

Were we to cite only the richest prayers, hymns, and statements of the Eastern Church on the presence of the Lord among us, we would fill volumes. Typical are the words of this hymn from the Annunciation Vespers: "Adam, desiring to be God, fell by eating of the forbidden fruit. So to teach Adam how to become God, God became man."

1. OUR INCOMPARABLE PATRIMONY

The incomparably rich writings of our Fathers are the voice of your own ancestors in the faith. Their names are known throughout the Christian world - Athanasius of Alexandria, Basil the Great, the two Gregories, John Chrysostom, John of Damascus, and the rest. We alone can truly say that they are bones of our bones, flesh of our flesh: ours in the truest sense of the term. They lived in the lands of our origin and the riches of their inheritance are now the treasured possession of the entire Church. Still we are the most rightful heirs of their inestimable treasures, for we are their very descendants, sons of the same soil.

However true this may be, we do not live in the past, but in the present. Why must we exert so much energy to preserve the heritage of days long since past, we who are such a minority in American Catholicism? Since we live in the United States now, why do we not simply follow the majority of Catholics and become Latin? These questions are often heard and deserve answers.

We can do no better than recall the teaching of Vatican II which declared: 'History, tradition, and numerous ecclesiastical institutions manifest luminously how much the universal Church is indebted to the Eastern Churches. Therefore, ...all Eastern rite members should know that they can and should always preserve their lawful liturgical rites and their established way of life ... and should honor all these things with greatest fidelity.'

2. OUR MISSION TO ROMAN CATHOLICS

For a long time the principle of the superiority of the Roman rite, which had become general during the Middle Ages, prevailed in the West. The Latin tradition was considered the only true Catholic tradition, and this led to a certain fixedness among Catholics: the Latin way is the only way! Events of the succeeding centuries only served to heighten the feeling among Latin Catholics that to be Catholic one had to be Roman.

Vatican II put an end to this provincialist view of the Church once and for all. The Church cannot be identified, it stressed, with any one culture, nation, or form of civilization without contradicting that universality which is the essence of the Gospel.

The existence of Eastern Churches as part of the Catholic family, although they have distinct customs and traditions in all areas of Church life, dramatically shows that to be Catholic one does not have to conform to the Roman model.

Indeed, the Roman Church, as the Council affirmed, has learned many lessons of late from the East in the fields of liturgy (use of the vernacular, Communion in both kinds, baptism by immersion), of Church order (collegiality, synodal government, the role of the deacon), and spirituality. In a very real sense, the Western Church 'needs' a vibrant Eastern Church to complement its understanding of the Christian message.

3. ECUMENICAL VOCATION OF EASTERN CATHOLICS

By our fidelity to maintaining our patrimony, by our refusal to be assimilated, the Eastern Churches render a most precious service to Rome in still another area of Church life. Latinizing this small number of Easterners would not be a gain for Rome; rather it would block - perhaps forever - a union of the separated Churches of the East and West. It would be easy then for Orthodoxy to see that union with Rome leads surely to ecclesiastical assimilation.

Thus it is for the sake of ecumenism - to create a climate favorable to the union of the Churches - that the Eastern Catholic must remain faithful to his tradition. This providential vocation which is ours opens to the Church an unlimited perspective for preaching the Gospel to all peoples who, while they accept faith in Christ, must still remain themselves in this vast assembly of believers.

From what has been said above, it is easy for us to find our place in America's pluralistic societies with its varied Churches and religious groups. In the now famous words of the late Patriarch Maximos IV,

'We have, therefore, a two-fold mission to accomplish within the Catholic Church. We must fight to insure that latinism and Catholicism are not synonymous, that Catholicism remains open to every culture, every spirit, and every form of organization compatible with the unity of faith and love. At the same time, by our example, we must enable the Orthodox Church to recognize that a union with the great Church of the West, with the See of Peter, can be achieved without being compelled to give up Orthodoxy or any of the spiritual treasures of the apostolic and patristic East, which is opened toward the future no less to the past.'

4. A DANGER TO THIS MISSION: THE GHETTO MENTALITY

We have not yet mentioned the principal dangers which threaten our communities and their mission to the Churches: the ghetto mentality and the assimilation process.

In a ghetto life is closed in upon itself, operating only within itself, with its own ethnic and social clich�s. And the Parish lives upon the ethnic character of the community; when that character disappears, the community dies and the parish dies with it.

One day all our ethnic traits - language, folklore, customs - will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, primarily for the service of the immigrant or the ethnically oriented, unless we wish to assure the death of our community. Our Churches are not only for our own people but are also for any of our fellow Americans who are attracted to our traditions which show forth the beauty of the universal Church and the variety of its riches.

5. A SECOND DANGER: THE ASSIMILATION PROCESS

Without doubt we must be totally devoted to our American national culture. We must have an American life-style. We must be fully American in all things and at the same time we must preserve this authentic form of Christianity which is ours and which is not the Latin form. We must know that we have something to give, otherwise we have no reason to be. We must develop and maintain a religious tradition we know capable of enriching American life. Otherwise we would be unfaithful to our vocation.

It is often easier to get lost in the crowd than to affirm one's own personality. It takes more courage, character, and inner strength to lead our traditions to bear fruit than it takes to simply give them up. The obsession to be like everyone else pursues us to the innermost depths of our hearts. We recognize that our greatest temptation is always to slip into anonymity rather than to assume our responsibility within the Church. And so, while we opt for ethnic assimilation, we can never agree to spiritual assimilation.

One prime source of spiritual assimilation for Eastern Catholics has been the phenomenon known as "latinization', the copying by Eastern Catholics of the theology, spiritual practices, and liturgical customs of the Latin Church. Latinization implies either the superiority of the Roman rite -the position denounced by Vatican II - or the desirability of the assimilation process, an opinion with which we cannot agree. Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church. As we have said above, to do this would be to betray our ecumenical mission and, in a real sense, to betray the Catholic Church.

For this reason many parishes are attempting to return to the practice of Eastern traditions in all their purity. This has often entailed redecoration of the churches and elimination of certain devotions on which many of the people had been brought up. In some places, our priests, attempting to follow the decree of the Council in this matter have been opposed by some of their parishioners. Other priests have been reluctant to move in this direction, as they feared that division and conflict would result. We should all know in this regard that a latinized Eastern Church cannot bear anything but false witness, as it seems to be living proof that Latinism and Catholicism are indeed one and the same thing.

To be open to others, to be able to take our rightful place on the American Church scene, we must start by being fully ourselves. It is only in our distinctiveness that we can make any kind of contribution to the larger society. It is only by being what we are that we retain a reason for existence at all.

6. GRATITUDE TO OUR FOREFATHERS

Immigrants from Western Europe to the United States had less to do than our fathers did to adapt themselves to the American life-style. The Easterner, on the other hand, found himself immersed in a far different world than that which he knew. The temptation was great to throw off his entire heritage and become what he was not. And so we remember with gratitude our fathers and grandfathers and the priests who accompanied them from the old country for the foundations we have in this immense continent. Those who followed them have also worked well, often building splendid churches with the assistance of the Latin hierarchy. Now we are in the age of the young, American-born priests. To them especially falls the task of perfecting the work begun before them. They are still too few in number, but we hope with confidence that their number will increase.

We cannot be grateful enough to those Roman Catholic bishops of this country who took the steps necessary to preserve our heritage while we had no hierarchy of our own on these shores. We think most of all of the late Cardinal Richard Cushing, undoubtedly the greatest benefactor of our church in the United States. Thanks to his apostolic openness and love, he worked for the establishment of our exarchate and generously endowed it with his psychological and financial support once it had been erected. For this reason we have directed that a solemn Liturgy be celebrated annually in our cathedral to perpetuate his memory.

7. TOWARD THE FUTURE

This is not the place to describe in detail the projects we are currently working on. We only list some here: a diocesan religious education program for both adults and youth, a unified text and musical setting for the Divine Liturgy to be followed by similar texts for the other services of the Church, such as the sacraments, a diocesan handbook which we will soon be happy to offer to the faithful and to the friends of our Church, a periodical which will also appear before long, and the general sharing with the faithful of our pastoral responsibility, as in parish councils and an active diaconate among other things.

Also high on our priority list are the concerns of youth. Without the participation of the young, we can be assured that all our work is in vain and that our communities will disappear. And so we look forward to implementing a diocesan youth program as well before long.

We also recognize that we are reaching only a small number of our faithful while the majority of them are unknown to us. Like the Good Shepherd concerned about the lost sheep, we ask ourselves what can be done for them. We are presently in the process of studying these situations and hope to provide for their pastoral care where possible.

With what joy, then, was it to hear Bishop Mark Hurley of Santa Rosa, California observe in a recent speech that 'in many of our dioceses Eastern Christians are without churches of their own. It is the duty of the Latin bishops to see that the venerable rites of the East are preserved.' The bishop then called on the Eastern Catholic bishops in America to form parishes in these areas so that 'the example of the East may continue to instruct Western Catholics and that the true universality of the Catholic Church may be experienced.'

8. FINAL THOUGHTS

Dear faithful, be united to one another in the love of Christ. Form one soul and one heart with your priests and with one another, for it is only by this union in love that God is truly glorified.

On this blessed day in which the family of God gathers around the manger, we mention in our prayers with affection and respect His Holiness Pope Paul VI, His Beatitude Patriarch Maximos V, and all our brother bishops, whether of our own Church or of the entire Catholic family. To them all we present our best wishes.

And may this Christmas day be for all of us the prelude to our transformation into the image of the Son of God made man, who bore our human weakness to clothe us with the mantle of incorruptibility and to shine the light of his face on our human nature.

With these prayers and sentiments, dear faithful, we ask for you and your families the most abundant blessings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Archbishop Joseph Tawil

Christmas, 1970

God grant you many years,

Neil

Shlomo Michael,
Thank you for the complement, but I just copied from our Maronite Website in Mexico: http://www.unionmaronitamex.org.mx. Being Nerdy and the World Wide Web has made me seem smarter than I am.

Thanks again,
Yuhannon

Dear Michael,

Yes, I believe Rome has now approved the Mozarabic Rite for all of Spain, according to the wishes of the local bishops - we had a thread on this a long while ago and I think it was Edward Yong who saw the "edict" to this effect.

There is also the Rite or Use of Braga in Portugal and a number of "city usages" in Italy that still persist.

The Carmelites, Premonstratensians, Dominicans, Cistercians and Franciscans have their usages as well (the Cistercians pray to the Mother of God with knuckles on the floor, for example).

But even a rite like the Mozarabic one cannot really be used since the priest would have to face the altar rather than the people to properly celebrate it. There was an article on the web I saw some time ago about a Spanish liturgiologist who said he refused to celebrate the Mozarabic Rite since to adapt it to the Novus Ordo would be to effectively destroy it.

Alex

Dear Neil,

Archbishop Tawil's excellent sermon touches on the aspect of ethnicity and this is an issue that has long been discussed among the Ukrainians, especially within the patriarchal movement.

Ethnicity as such is certainly part and parcel of all Eastern churches that are essentially organized around national lines.

Roman Catholicism is also organized around national lines and one may speak of a "Polish Church" etc.

But in the East, the national Church is organized not only according to cultural/national identity that involves language and the like - the cultural factor is characteristic of the very spiritual and ecclesial character of the Particular Church itself.

There is an "Arab spirituality," a "Greek spiritiuality" and a "Rus' spirituality" that make themselves felt in their respective churches in everything from iconography to the way one experiences prayer.

The spirituality of Kyivan Rus' is very "heart-rending" whereas that of the Greeks tends to be more "intellectual" and even, as some have said, "stern."

So the contemporary ethnic factor in the Ukrainian Church, for example, could very well disappear over time in North America.

And yet that would not make the Ukrainian Church here any less "Ukrainian" because its members no longer spoke the language or had otherwise become culturally assimilated to the North American mainstream.

The Kyivan Church, of which the Ukrainian Church is but one heir, has preached missions in numerous languages in its history, as you know.

What would remain long after the language and dances are forgotten is the historic spirituality that is characteristic of the Kyivan Church which is markedly different from other churches of the Byzantine tradition.

A "Byzantine Church" per se does not really exist in a kind of "pure" form. It exists in variously adapted forms among the Particular Churches of the Byzantine tradition. But the differentiating ecclesial and spiritual character of those Particular Churches would remain even without the ethnicity factor.

This is my main objection to a "unified Byzantine jurisdiction."

For me and for many others, while it addresses the reality of increased cultural assimilation in North America, it tends to oversimplify the reality of the differences between the Particular Churches in spirituality and ecclesial character - differences that are both maintained and preserved within the Particular Mother Church.

The Kyivan Church is not the Antiochian Church, irrespective of the common liturgical heritage shared between them (in fact, I believe the Antiochian tradition would prefer to return to its true heritage in the Liturgy of St James).

In addition, the view that a unified Byzantine jurisdiction would somehow be more attractive to the cultural mainstream of North America can only be pushed so far.

Yes, there is a need for English liturgies and for our Churches to be welcoming to those who are not of the cultural folds traditionally associated with Particular Churches - absolutely.

My parish has many Latin Catholics, Novus Ordo and Tridentines, of different cultural backgrounds - and they add greatly to the richness of our parish life. We could not be without them!

But our very Byzantine spirituality with its cupolas and other Byzantine traditions come directly from the culture of the ancient Byzantine Imperial court, as we know.

Byzantine spirituality is already, even if shorn of all ethnicity, an "ethnic Church" in and of itself - or is perceived as such. It will, in short, NEVER be considered a "mainstream" Church in North America, by North Americans.

Just some reflections.

Alex

Thank you so much for all the clarifications. I printed it all and my brother and I will read it this weekend. I know we will get it. I went to www.newadvent.com [newadvent.com]
It gave me a lot of the explanations of the differences but since this is an encyclopedia, uufff, I find it hard sometimes to understand.

So far yours are much easier to read and understand.

Thank you all. GOd bless you and lets thank Jesus Christ tomorrow while we are at the table with our family. Thanksgiving, yes to you our Lord.

Iliana Guadalupe,

�Que tengas un dia de acc�on de gracias muy feliz con tu familia, tambien!

(Please forgive my use of the formal tu).

�Dios los bendiga, todos!

jw,

Tu is actually the familiar 2nd person singular possessive pronoun. The formal 2nd person singular possessive pronoun is su.

Hey Alex-
I found a website for St Elijah Ukrainian Catholic church near Toronto. It looked wonderful , no pews, beautiful architecture and icons and it appeared that liturgy was in English. My wife and I were so impressed that we are considering a visit. I assume you know of this place; can you tell me more about it?

Dear Daniel,

Yes, my relative by marriage is the pastor there - to my shame, I've never visited there, even though their choir has been to my in-laws' church . . .

It is strictly Eastern and even Orthodox Christians have high praise for it. It draws people from all sorts of cultural backgrounds.

It is in the style of the traditional Carpathian wooden Church and rests beautifully in its location.

Their services are longer than one hour though . . .

You might wish to consult "Gavshev" and "De Freitas" here on the Forum for a more informed discourse about this true pearl among our parishes.

Your beadsman,

Alex

Dear Daniel,

Yes, my relative by marriage is the pastor there - to my shame, I've never visited there, even though their choir has been to my in-laws' church . . .

It is strictly Eastern and even Orthodox Christians have high praise for it. It draws people from all sorts of cultural backgrounds.

It is in the style of the traditional Carpathian wooden Church and rests beautifully in its location.

Their services are longer than one hour though . . .

You might wish to consult "Gavshev" and "De Freitas" here on the Forum for a more informed discourse about this true pearl among our parishes.

Your beadsman,

Alex

I think he meant the informal t�, instead of using the usted. :rolleyes:

Why would they adapt it the Novus Ordo? the language of the Mozarabic Rite is Latin. you don't adapt the Tridentine Mass to the Novus Ordo!

Alex,

I hold no brief for a unified Byzantine Church, nor do I believe that Archbishop Joseph suggested anything of the like. We need never be considered a "mainstream" Church to survive, but we must reach out into the "main stream", with open arms, and welcome those who would be one with us. In the long run, we will only survive as individual Churches because of the spirituality that was inherent to our beginnings - but it will be in the hands of persons who have learned of that spirituality, not ones who grew up in it. If we fail to offer that knowledge and expand the understanding of those who come to us, we will stand alone, as I suggested in another posting, waving our national flags beneath a Pantocrater and wondering where everyone is.

You referenced "national" or "ethnic" parishes of the RC. These are fewer and fewer in the US and for the same reasons. Those who made up the ethnic community are gone, their children are scattered, and there was only the ethnicity that bound people to the parish. (In the West, I think there is decidedly less of a spirituality associated with any particular ethnicity, than there is in the East.

I live in a city that was once replete with national parishes, they are now few and far between; I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of parishes suppressed in this Latin archdiocese in the last 10 years were ethnic/national parishes.

Many years,

Neil

Dear ByzantineLearner,

You are right - that is why the Mozarabic Rite cannot be adapted to the Novus Ordo without doing significant damage to it.

Alex