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Khristos Voskrese!
Voistino Voskrese!

I would only respond with words of equity. The "ukrainian idea" is the novelty here, and not the Russian identity of Carpatho-Russians, Ruthenians, Lemkians, etc. To blame "Russians" for the famines of 1921-22, 1932-33, 1945-45 is simply not accurate. bolsheviks bear that stigma. "Filiwiw" is a need I would mention and he was not a "moskal". Let me tell you a story.

My grandparents lived in the city of Orel in 1932-33 and my mother was born in 1931. They were of Russian & Cossack lineage. All the churches had been closed, but they still celebrated holidays, especially PASCHA. In 1932, the money for the Feast came from taking the rizas off my grandparents' matrimonial icons and selling them at the torgsin. In 1933, all the precious metals were gone. My grandmother searched the bazaars for some scrap of food anything. She found a woman selling head cheese at the market. She bought it for the Feast with the money from her baptismal cross. On PASCHA morning, my grandfather and mother and she were please to have such a precious food for Pascha as so many had nothing. My grandmother cut into it, served my grandfather and my infant mother and she cut into a small bone which looked strange. It looked like a small human finger bone. Later, that day she read in the paper as to how the woman she had bought the headcheese from was arrested for "cannibalism and profiteering in marketing the remains of her children." That was the sickest moment of my grandparents' lives. This was not exclusive to the Ukraine, my friend.

The Lemkian, Galician, Carpatho-Russian, etc. situations are tragedies I consider which affect all the Russian people--we care about what happens to our brethren.
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The links that you provided do not support your remark, which is in error.

Dear Balaban,

"I would not use the term 'Ever-Immaculate.'

That is your prerogative - but one can find it in Orthodox liturgical prayers.

What the RC Church believes with its view, not dogmatically formulated, about the "Co-Redemptrix" is not that there is somehow a fourth person in the Trinity.

In fact, the view is close to the Orthodox perspective that is voiced each time the invocation, "Most Holy Mother of God, save us" is used.

She saves us by her prayer and intercession that is more powerful than any other Saint owing to her central role in the mystery of Salvation whereby the Son of God took His Flesh from Her.

This view is therefore properly understood as part of the theology of the Communion of Saints - and this alone.

Our sister, Alice, is certainly a most caring and loving servant of Christ, as I know you would readily concede yourself.

Her devotion to and love for the Most Holy Theotokos is boundless, as it should be for every Christian.

When all is said and done, both East and West affirms that the Most Holy Theotokos is the holiest creature and, as ST John of Kronstadt wrote, "Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Holy Trinity!"

And both believe she was conceived in holiness, and was taken bodily to Heaven at her Dormition.

And both sides invoke her constantly to ask for her prayers and intercessions to bring us safely before the Throne of Her Son in Heaven.

No one is saying that there are no theological problems between RCism and Orthodoxy that do not need to be discussed and resolved before full unity can be achieved between the two.

And no one is trying to take away your rights to articulate your arguments here or anywhere else by the suggestion that we always speak to one another with the courtesy and charity that should exist among all Christians.

And I make that suggestion to you now, sir.

Alice is our special treasure on this board and what hurts her, hurts me and everyone else here.

FYI.

Alex

Dear brother balaban,

The horrors of the 1932 - 1933 genocide of the Ukrainian people was clearly deliberate and on orders from Moscow, Russia.

There have been many scholarly publications about this genocide, including some from Harvard University here in the Boston area.

Current historical publication clearly indicate that the 1932 - 1933 famine genocide or 'Holodomor' targeted three areas. These were: (1) ethnic Ukrainians of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, (2) the Ukrainian speaking Cossaks of the Caucases, and (3) the ethnic Germans (and some Tatars) of the Volga. Both the Ukrainians (and the Germans) were resisting Russian communist colonialism. For the Ukrainians, this was an extension of their centuries old nation building heritage.

This famine which claimed from a conservative estimate of 7 million lives to as high as 10 - 14 million did not reach Orel, Russia where you state that your grandmother lived and experienced this act of genocide. There is plenty of published scholarly evidence which indicates that the famine did not extend at all beyond the Ukrainian SSR border north into the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic. In fact, there are plenty of accounts as to people going north of the Ukrainian border in search of food (including to Orel, Russia where there was no shortage) and then upon their return to Ukraine having their food confiscated at the Ukrainian border.

What is clear, is that immediately following the famine, there were many ethnic Russians who were resettled into the Holodomor depopulated regions of Ukraine. There are many scholars who believe that the Orel region Russians (where your grandparents lived) were the most numorous in regards to acquiring the empty Ukrainian villages in 1934 (immediately following the genocidal Ukrainian Holodomor).

Also, there are many scholarly publications that clearly indicate that personal wealth in the form of money, jewels, and other valuables were no longer in the hands of their pre-revolution owners by the late 1920's. The Russian Soviets had either confiscated them, stole them, and / or expropriated them either for exit visas or for other survival necessities (ie: food).

Your account of your grandmother's (grandparents) survival during the Ukrainian genocidal famine of 1932 - 1933 would counter all scholarly historical publications I have read up until today. Your claim is that the Ukrainian famine of 1932 - 1933 also occured in Orel region of Russia. This is a significant historical revelation that all major universities studying this genocide have never seen, including in Soviet government files which have been declassified from the era.

I called one of my professors at Harvard University's faculty of Ukrainian studies. He is also amazed at this account of your grandmother's survival during the Holodomor and has requested that I get more information from you. I hope you agree to cooperate in this new historical revelation.

(2) The unification of the modern Ruthenian lands into one nation known as Ukraine is not tragic as long as they are all prospering and developing their cultures, economies, and most importantly their native churches.

Today's Ukrainian nation is made up not only of different Ruthenians who have evolved over time in different empires, but of other nationalities, including Russians, Poles, Rumanians, Jews, Tatars, Hungarians, and other. However, the Ruthenians are the majority for the first time in centuries in their homeland.

I look forward to interviewing you in regards to your grandmother's unique experience in the Russian Soviet Republic during the Ukrainian Holodomor of 1932 - 1933.

Hritzko

I do not support the declaration as Dogma of Mary as Co-redemptrix. Not because she didn't share in the redemption of mankind, she did. Catholic theology teaches that all Christians share in the sufferings of our Lord, and thereby hasten the renewal of all creation, which groans even until now. So Mary's contribution must have been vast, in that her soul was pure and her suffering was endured unselfishly. The trouble with newly defined dogmas is that they tend to be misunderstood, and thereby create a lot of polemics, as has happened here. The last thing we need right now is to further distance from one another those who are seeking unity in the Church.

That having been said, I would hope that we as Christians on this forum could address one another in humble kindness, and not in hateful one-upmanship. All the historical and theological knowledge in creation will not help us if we have not love.

Please do not offend my friend, Alice. She is, as Alex said, our treasure. She never fails to leave peace and kindness in her wake. Furthermore, a harsh tone here will not endear you to anyone else either. Theotokos, pray for us. Tammy

Dear Tammy and Alex,

Thank you so much for your love,support and kind words. I am truly humbled, my good and wonderful friends!

We all need to remember, especially newcomers, that we are on this forum for the same reason, and that should be our commitment to following and growing in our (sometimes difficult) paths to Christ, and the learning and sharing of our beautiful faith traditions, cultures, and spiritual patrimonies, remembering that Christ is at the heart of all of them. We have enough people in the world against us,(Christians) we should not allow ourselves to be against each other!

With much love in Christ and our Blessed Mother,
Alice

P.S.Tammy--I remember reading on a Catholic site that Pope JPII is also firmly against the term 'co-redemptrix' because it is so theologically misunderstood. There are some lay people that want it made dogma, but this pope will not allow it. Sometimes over defining matters of theology can definitely backfire especially in relations with the *under*defining Eastern churches!

Christ is Risen!
Indeed, He is Risen!

This is the link:
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2956

One need only read it.

OREL is a RUSSIAN CITY, has always been and will always be a RUSSIAN CITY, and SOUTHWESTERN RUSSIAN WAS INVOLVED IN THESE FAMINES AS WELL. I WISH SOME PEOPLE WOULD GET A CLUE AND END THIS RUSSOPHOBIA. I am well aware of the circumstances involved. "Filiwiw", anyone?

The texts in question I believe are "vse-chistaja", ie "All-Pure". "Ever-Immaculate" presupposes the idea of the Immaculate Conception.

The person in question was simply discounting facts and being argumentative. Her right to dissent was respected, but the Truth is above erroroneous personal opinions.

Lastly, the idea of "co-Redemptorix" is an impossibility. Is the Theotokos now sending her own salvific grace to the People of God? Why need Christ? Is she God, that she can save? How else might she save? Is there an arian or nestorain dynamic espoused here? Moreover, if Christ is not the cause of her and our salvation, then the vanity of the Passion, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, the sending of the Holy Spirit. The arguments being posited is that the human nature of the Theotokos was transformed by a "charismatic experience" and she saves because she is deified in Christ. How could she be deified in Christ, it must be partial, because she was born without the stain of sin according to the latins? Why would she need to if the chasm separating her from God the Father were already removed? Moreover, we Orthodox believe that she is the highest perfection of created human being, it would follow, then, with the idea of co-Redemptorix, that we in our deification were capable of ascending the heights as some sort of micro-Saviours/demigods or that the Theotokos is/was more than an us and a chasm exists with her as well. Then it would follow that she is deifying with uncreated energies, or if not, with created grace which furthers negates christological doctrine. Is she a new hypostasis of the Holy Trinity? How is she saving? None of this is worthy of the Panaghia Theotokos.
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Moreover, I resent the fact that someone is now saying things did not happen. I indicated three eras of famines which in one way or another affected all of Russia. That Harvard's "ukrainian" studies department or the cheka did not maintain a record of the famines is not surprising. Firstly, it was not widely known in the west until very polemical "ukrainian nationalist" dissemination and, secondly, the bolsheviks did not keep documented figures of people who starved to death nor did they care to. Non-argument.

And, really, this is an utterly tired exercise to insist on vapid and pathologically irrational Russian russophia with no other purpose than hate. Take your hate and condescension elsewhere. My ancestors were Kuban cossacks--I know of the history of the region quite well. My ancestors were Zaporizhian cossacks and members of the Kievan and Ostrogh brotherhoods. We were there when history was formed. Were you and yours?! And, please, be factually correct: there were "Ukrainian" cossacks who were those who fought for the Polish crown and bore the charter of recz pospolita. They were active on the left bank but later rebelled because of unia. Look, if the moderators are so concerned about "shouting matches", then they should do something about the seething hate of pathological Russian russophobes. I can give better than I get, but where does this lead?

Really, it is poor form and the voice of a swine to discount the tragedy of ALL Russians during the era of communism, which was in no way a "Russian" institution or even had an ethnically "Russian" ruling polity. This is simply obnoxious rabid hatred and is akin to telling Jews they did not suffer under hitler. Who did not suffer in this era where the Galicians. What right do they have to discount firsthand accounts?!
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Dear brother balaban,

If you read my last post, you will notice what I have stated:

(1) I'm in total agreement that the city of Orel is in Russia. It will as you mention probably remain part of Russia forever, and it should. I have never stated anything else.

(2) The only areas in the Soviet Union which experienced the artificial famine of 1932 - 1933 were (a) Soviet Ukraine, (b) the the 'Lower Volga' region, and (c) the 'Northern Caucases' (which include the modern day areas of Krasnodar, Stavropol, Rostov, and Don), the last two being in Soviet Russia. The Lower Volga was populated by ethnic Germans (and some Tatars) and the Northern Caucases by Ukrainian speaking Cossaks. In other words the famine was targeted mostly at ethnic Ukrainians, and select Germans and Tatars, but NOT Russians.

I CHALLENGE YOU TO PRODUCE SOME SCHOLARLY EVIDENCE THAT THERE WAS (AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED IN YOUR 'FAMILY AUTOBIOGRAPHY' - SEE ABOVE POST) LARGE SCALE FAMINE IN THE OREL REGION OF RUSSIA IN THE YEAR 1932 - 1933.

There is much scholarly work to indicate that the artifical famine never affected the Orel region of Russia. Published scholarly works to support my statement have been produced by Harvard University, University of Toronto, Oxford University, and many other noted institution.

(3) 7 to 10 million Ukrainian men, women, and children, starved to death in 1932 - 1933 alone on direct orders from Russia, in addition to generations of the destruction of our Ukrainian churches, cultural institutions, and intellectual elites, will produce as you say a certain amount "Russophobia" (fear of Russians). This is only human nature. There are a lot of people who fear the Russian Empire. You should begin to understand that sooner than later.

I WISH YOU WOULD GET THE CLUE AND END YOUR RUSSIAN IMPERIAL VISION OF HISTORY.

I look forward to your scholarly published reference (and so does Harvard University) concerning the 'environment' of your 'story' of your grandparent's suffering in Orel, Russia during the great famine of 1932 - 1933.

Should you not produce it by tomorrow at noon, then sir, I will be forced to expose you as a pathological liar.

Hritzko

These voices of hate would argumentatively maintain that the holocaust did not happen and would demand ample documentation to prove that fact. The "scholarly evidence" you writhe for has to be imprimatured I'm sure by "ukrainoznavsto" as well. Where is it the Orel region derived its foodsource from?! I hear crickets. Historically the Ukraine. OK, but the grain was someone there yet the fact of the matter shows that stalin flooded the world market with grain to obtain a source of capital for industrialization. The cities of the center were provided for but the rest of Russia did indeed face food shortages during the era. My ancestors WERE KUBAN COSSACKS--WE NEVER called ourselves "Ukrainians", the ideology was much later and it was simply laughably stupid. My uncles lived on the Lower Volga as fishermen and they were QUITE Great Russian as was the majority of the population. You really are sick. Show us the scholarly evidence where your particular region of Galicia suffered in any of this?! You people did not participate in this history nor did you do anything to even defend yourselves when you were set upon by foreigners. Enough of you! You have made me angry and your hatefulness is unworthy of civil discourse. If you cannot accept the account of the tragedy of a family, I don't know how to console you in your rabid and pathological hatred. I would suppose you protest Holocaust museums as well. There weren't 6 million Jews in Europe at the time, right?! Russian russophobes are such pitiful creatures! You are a sorry individual.

And, lastly, I've burned down the "Russian imperial" strawman long ago--your insipd and foreign ideology is much more "Great Russian" than mine. Now, either go educate yourself or stop being argumentative without a clue.
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http://www.faits-et-documents.com/bilan_communisme/famine_1921.htm

Orel is less than 200 KM from Kiev.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/other/famineideology.shtml

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/interactive/specials/9910/millennium.newseum/content/75.html

http://www.ennonline.net/fex/08/ms20.html

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All of Russia suffered and in greater numbers than the "Ukrainian scholars put forward", not just the Ukraine.

Here is a map which shows just how close Orel is to the Ukraine.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~pv/maps/Russia_94.jpg

I think the case has been made and the hatred of "some" exposed.
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Dear balaban:

The "Co" in the title Co-Redemptrix is understood not in the sense of being "equal" to the Redeemer but rather "with" the Redeemer. That is how I've read/heard it being explained. I know that "Co" in everyday common language denotes a sense of equality, but in this instance, equality is not being asserted or intended by the title.

Looking at it this way, there should be no problem in saying that the All-Holy Mother of God is "With" the Redeemer. She participated/participates in the Redeemer's plan of salvation most perfectly, just as we all, in accordance with our talents and calling, participate in His plan when we evangelize and bring the world to Christ. In other words, we are all "co-redeemers" and the Holy Virgin is the most pre-eminent among us. We are not all equal to God, for there is only one God, but we are all with God when we participate in His plan of salvation.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it this way:

Now look at the rest of your questions in your paragraph and try to revise them in accordance with the above understanding of the title.

I concur with Alex,

"Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

God bless,

CC

Dear ByzantineAscetic:

Is there anything specific about my post or the posts of others on this thread that saddens you?

God bless,

CC