www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Hypothetical question needing answers

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Assume that you and your parish had the possibility of ordering a book for the celebration of Great Vespers and Litija for a given feast (take, for example, Dormition, Aug.15).

The stichera at "O Lord, I Have Cried" are in Tone 1 and are directed to be sung to the samopodoben melody, "O Divnoje Cudo." (Sorry, don't know how to access diacritical marks...)

This is the only podoben in the service. If you were ordering the book, would you want:
(a) the book to contain only the melody
which the Typikon assigns, or
(b) the book to contain both the stichera
written out to the podoben, but at least
in an appendix, to contain the same texts
written out to the samohlasen tone?

Your comments are coveted. Thank you in advance.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Metropolitan Cantor Institute

Glory to Him forever!

If it were not too much trouble, I'd prefer the one with both.

This gives the parish with the cantor who tries hard but is musically unsophisticated and clueless about the samopodoben melody the chance to still sing the stichera well, albeit to a different melody.

I think it's the Vesper book for the Feast of St. Nicholas which bears the notation somewhere that for "this" particular snippet 'the Bolhar melody is prescribed, but it is difficult to sing and rarely used, so we've taken the liberty of setting this to Podoben Tone 2' - or something like that. I'd love to have SEEN the Bolhar melody, but I think what they did was pastorally thoughtful.


My 2 hypothetical kopecks.


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

This is a very interesting question, Professor Thompson.

I would pick (b). Although "O dyvnoe chudo" is one of the relatively easier podobens, it is sometimes difficult for someone unfamiliar with it to lead a choir in singing it. I think having the notes to the samohlasen meoldy in an appendix with a note saying that they should only be used if the cantor is unfamiliar with the podoben or something like that.

While you are at it, you should insert some other versions of that podoben which are easier to sing than the Galician melody. There is the melody from the Kievan Caves (two melodies infact -- one similar to the Galician, and the other is very simplified), and also one from the Glinsk Pustin or something like that.

Daniil

Dear Professor Thompson and Daniil,

I see that the two of you have, as they say in Ukrainian, "found each other . . ."

For me, reading your posts here is like attending a lecture in Greek.

But "Axios" to you both!

Alex

[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Professor Thompson, I have a recording of the Studites from Univ at which they sing the stikhera for Uspennya in Tone 1 samohlasni except the specific stikhera O Divoe Chudno which they sing in Tone 1 samopodobny.

I've also heard all of the stikhera sung in Tone 1 samohlasni and the dogmatika sung in Tone 1 samopodobny, which isn't really kosher since the dogmatica has its own Znamenny melody from the Hirmologion.

This samopobodny has to be one of my all time favorite melodies in the tradition but granted it is much more difficult and complex than Tone 1 samohlasni if you don't have a choir and are doing it congregationally. I also throw my vote in for option b.

[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Professor Michael,

Cantor Sharon brings up an excellent point. For those cantors who are unfamiliar with the podoben tones and those parishes who haven't even learned yet all the samohlasen tones well, it would be pastorally advisable to include both, thereby allowing vespers to be celebrated one way or another.

For those parishes just getting familiar with vespers, the Samohlasen tones included can help. As they become familiar and comfortable with these tones, then one can attempt to move on to the more complex podoben tones. Having both will be a great learning tool in our school of chant.

For example, our parish is ready to move beyond the Samohlasen tones since we have celebrated festive vespers in our parish for every feast ... and then some for a number of years and have come to be able to sing with the cantor without musical notation. Hearing the children sing Samohlasen tones can make anyone smile. We have older parishioners, musically inclined schola members, and just plain music-hungry folks who would love the challenge of learning our more complete repertoire of liturgical chant. If the vesper books included both then it would only be more readily adaptable to where the cantor(s) and parishioners are at, musically speaking.

Send us them tones!

Cantor Joe Thur


PS: Read your private mail. Thanks.

[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Cantor Joe,

I bow to your great knowledge of this mysterious body of musical/liturgical literature that "podoben-peasants" like me can only sigh about.

And that's the name of that tone . . .

Alex

Alex,

I'm still learning. :p

The Church always welcomes new participants with ideas on chant. As Professor Thompson begins to submit his ideas regarding chant arrangement to the Church for review and consideration for possible use we should all provide encouragement and feedback to him and all those who work with our chant.

I published books for Great Vespers for most of the feasts (with music) throughout the late 1980's and early 1990's. They are currently the standard in those parishes that celebrate these services. They are quite faithful to our liturgical tradition (meaning the abbreviation on the number of sticheri follow the typical form).

For the Feast of the Dormition there is a Great Vespers book, a Vespers with Divine Liturgy book, and a Burial Service book. Anyone who would like copies is welcome to contact me via private messaging. I have never charged to provide these books but only ask for reimbursement for copying and postage. Suggestions for improvement are always welcome.

[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Administrator ]

Burial Service, as in the Burial of the Mother of God? What chant are the Stasis in?

Daniil

Danill,

I do not have the service in front of me and it is some years since I published the book so the answer is not at the top of my mind. I will check and post again.

Admin

Glory to Jesus Christ!

In response to those who privately asked for clarification:

At Vespers on feasts, we have the possibility of singing from four different sets of tones:

(1) Samohlasens (of which there are eight), which are sung with the hymns interpolated into the Lamplighting Psalms, the hymns of the Apostichera, and the Litija hymns which are sung in tones which Bolhars are lacking;

(2) Resurrection Tones (of which there are eight), for the Troparia and Theotokion assigned to the feast;

(3) Prokeimena Tones (of which there are eight)used to sing the Evening Prokeimenon; and

(4) Bolhar Tones (of which, in most Rusyn books, there are only four: Tones 1, 2, 4, and 5), which are used with the hymns of the Litija. For Litija hymns in Tones 3,6,7, and 8, we use samohlasen tones.

So where do PODOBENS come in?

Let's start at the very beginning, with the SAMOPODOBEN.

A samopodoben is a melody written for a specific liturgical hymn. The melody which is sung for the stichera (hymns) at the Lamplighting Psalms on the feast of the Dormition begins (in Slavonic) with the words, "O divnoje cudo" (which being interpreted is "O marvelous wonder!"

When this melody is indicated in the Menaion to be used with other texts, the designation will be "Tone 1: podoben "O divnoje cudo." This tells the singers that it is sung to the melody written for the August 15 texts.

This is a device used for thematic continuity. The "O divnoje cudo" melody, for example, is also used on the following feasts of the Theotokos: her Nativity (at the Praises at Matins); her Protection (at the Lamplighting Psalms, for half of the appointed stichera); and her Entrance into the Temple (again, for half of the appointed stichera at the Lamplighting Psalms). It also is an added element of solemnity for the greater feasts.

Podoben is often translated in English liturgical books as "special melody."

Podobens are found in the Slavonic music anthologies utilized by Rusyns, grouped after the samohlasen melodies.

We have lost the use of some of these; in Bokshaj and in Papp they are often indicated by the Slavonic name of the podoben, followed by the comment "among us, sung to the samohlasen."

Most of the podobens given in our books are meant to be sung to hymns which are sung otherwise with samohlasen tones. However, there are also podobens which are sung to texts which would be otherwise sung to resurrection tones: for example, almost all Sedalens/Kathisma Hymns/Sessional Hymns (however you know them)have notations in the Slavonic books that they are to be sung to podobens. This is important, because the Sedalens are a peculiar place in the Byzantine Liturgy of the Hours: they are a place of repose in the midst of otherwise busy-ness. Because of this, the podobens for Sedalens often (not always, but often) tend to be melismatic (i.e., more than one note per syllable of text) and are sung very 'deliberately,' rather than up-tempo.

Recorded examples of podobens can be found on the recordings of the Schola Cantorum of St. Peter the Apostle:

(1) HAVE MERCY ON ME, O GOD has the podoben in Tone 8, "Povelinnoje Tajno," for the sedalen after Ode III of the Great Canon.

(2) MATINS OF THE RESURRECTION has the pobdoben (unique to Rusyns) of the Hypakoe after Ode III, and "Plottiju," for the Hymn of Light/Svitilen/Exapostilarion.

(3) GREAT VESPERS AND LITIJA OF ST NICHOLAS THE WONDERWORKER has the following podobni:
(a) Jehda ot dreva, for the Lamplighting Psalms;
(b) Kiimi pochal'nimy, for the Lamplighting Psalms;
(c) Radujsa zivonosnyj Kreste, for the Apostichera.

All of those recordings are available through the Byzantine Seminary Press.

I hope this helps clarify the terminology.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Metropolitan Cantor Institute

Glory to Jesus Christ!

In response to another question:

The one Rusyn book which gives five Bolhar melodies (instead of four) is the "PROSTOPINIJE" of Professor Theodore Ratsin, privately printed in 1925 in Wilkes-Barre, PA. He gives a Bolhar for the Sixth Tone.

JMT

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Professer Thompson, any theories on why Prostpinje currently only uses five Bulharski tones while our Ukrainian/Galician Bulharski has seven (1,2,3,4,5,6,8)? This has always intrigued me.

You poor old Ruthenians. If you need to borrow some Bulgarian Tones, you are free to do so (Except for Tone 7, although it probably does exist somewhere).

What is the Ruthenian version of the Galician Irmolohion (Lviv, 1905)? Does it have its origins in the Lviv 1707 Irmolohion?

Daniil