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What is the meaning behind the words, "All you who have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ, Alleluia"? Does the 'putting on' have to do with veils and headdress? What is the true goal of Christian life?

<<Worldly fashions should not have any kind of influence on our Church life.>>

I ask OrthodoxyorDeath if this means our clergy should stop wearing vestment styles from the 2nd-4th century? Do you have any clue where these vestment styles came from? Did Jesus vest like 21st Century Byzantine Bishop?


Joe

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Joe,

I cannot compare to your erudition, knowledge and feistiness!

And your point is well taken.

But could such things be blessed as are prayer ropes etc.?

OrthodoxyorDeath? What do you say? Are these blessed in Old Calendarist parishes?

Alex

Alex,

If cars can be blessed, veils and such can be blessed.



Joe

Joe,

That prayer "Those who have been baptized in Christ..." does have a relationship with head coverings.

For the woman, the head covering is a symbol of her dedication to the Lord (I can expound on this of you like)

Technically speaking, all Orthodox men should have beards (no I am not in the Taliban) and that is the symbol of their solidarity.

As far as the vestments go, as you know many things in the Orthodox Church are symbolic which is why the priests vestments appear like emperor's robes - since the priest is the icon of Christ he wears His robes. Have you ever seen the Icon of Christ as "Emperor", bishops crown but no cross on top, pillow under His feet?

This why when the priest walks by in the Great Entrance people grab his robes and kiss it because it represents Jesus's robes - like the woman who reached out to Jesus in the crowd and touched Him and was healed.

Sorry for the sloppy reply but I have to go...

Dear Joe,

I once saw a picture in the papers of a Russian Orthodox Priest with a little moveable "chapel on wheels" standing in the midst of Moscow traffic, blessing cars for a small fee to be used to rebuild his church.

After the end of a day like that, the Priest must have been "exhausted."

On the other hand, they do say that if a man runs in front of a car, he'll get "tired."

Alex

Actually, the Orthodox vestments have changed over the years -- most notably the Episcopal vestments, where the Crown became normative *after* the collapse of the Empire. It's an illusion to think that our clergy have always vested in *exactly* the same way that they do now -- the elements are there, but there has been nevertheless some change over the years, as there has been with the liturgy as well.

"Techically speaking, all Orthodox men should have beards"

That's plain rubbish. The Latins have been beardless for a long time -- long before their separation from the Orthodox Church.

And what is the issue with women wearing pants? In Christ's day, noone wore pants - should we go back to that?

Brendan

Been more than one time & place in the history of the world where virtuous women wore pants, and only whores wore skirts.

Shall we women get together and start talking about what's wrong with today's men? Or shall we each perhaps concentrate on our own sinfulness, and not judge one another. Seems to me that what is in the heart & done by the hands is far more important than whether a head is covered with a veil, long or short hair, or bald & painted silver.

I'll wear my own schmatte, thank you. I don't know how often those loaners are washed.

Sheesh.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Brendan,

"Latins have been beardless for a long time"

Ah yes, but some believe that the Latins have been heretical even before AD 1054.

So, no beards.

Like you, I believe that issue is neither hair nor there.

But it has been a very strong issue throughout Russia's history, the Old Believers, Tsar Peter's tax for those who continued to wear beards and the martyrdom of Sts. Antony, John and Eustace of Lithuania under Olgerde.

These Lithuanian Slavs were identified as Christians from their beards!

What is the canonical status of the Old Calendarists in Orthodoxy? How does mainstream Orthodoxy view them?

Alex

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

How do you view the relationship between Orthodoxy and Monarchy? Are you pro-monarchy? (I am!).

God bless,

Alex

Sharon,

You go girl!

Kurt

Sharon,

You used the mad face on your post, I hope that doesn't mean you are really mad at me.

I think you have misunderstood the meaning behind the pants issue and when you see the real meaning, you may be lifted to find it applies to men too.

St. Paul gives women's head covering a theological significance, his main point is to give a deeper foundation to a normal societal practice. This is borne out by St. John Chrysostom's interpretation of this passage. He discusses St. Paul's view of its theological import, but he also places it in the context of being dressed appropriately for one's sex; i.e., he asserts that it is a prohibition against cross-dressing, for which there are canons on as well. And this is one reason why men should have beards, so as to not look like a woman.

Seeing your post I noticed you are a cantor so I won't even mention that the NT says woman should be silent in Church...or did I just do that

Brendan,

To say that Orthodox men *should* have a beard or at least some facial hair may not be popular but it is certainly not rubbish.

Wearing a beard is a serious matter which is why our Messiah even made it a commandment when He revealed the Law to Moses. Leviticus 19:27 clearly states: "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard". The passage carries with it the implication that if we are not permitted to even disfigure the edges of our beard, then how much more the beard itself? God put it on the human male for a purpose.

The earliest iconography of the Church, with little exception, shows that the Apostles were bearded men, in keeping with the long tradition of our people. By His wearing a beard, the Messiah showed us that not only the obeying of the commandments was the correct path to travel, but that all things natural, when used in accordance with God's will, were a gift and were to be treasured rather than discarded.

"The beard must not be plucked. "You shall not deface the figure of your beard."
St. Cyprian of Carthage AD 250

"Men may not destroy the hair of their beards and unnaturally change the form of a man. For the Law says, "You shall not mar your beards." For God the Creator has made this decent for women, but has determined that it is unsuitable for men."
The Apostolic Constitutions AD 390

"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at a mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them! For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone, growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He has adorned man, like the lions, with a beard, a sign of strength and rule."
St. Clement of Alexandria AD 195

There is more... but for the sake of time...

It was not until after the Renaissance that the idea of a clean-shaven face as acceptable even entered the (Orthodox) Church. In the 1700's we find that St. Kosmas Aitolos had to tell men to once again grow their beards in accordance with God's will. His statement is perhaps the most accurate and levelheaded that one will find on the subject. He states: "You, young men, honor those with beards. And if there is a man of thirty with a beard and one of fifty, or sixty, or a hundred who shaves, place the one with the beard above the one who shaves, in church as well as at the table. On the other hand, I don't say that a beard will get you to heaven, but good works will. And your dress should be modest, as well as your food and your drink. Your whole conduct should be Christian so that you will be a good example for others". He makes the clear point that wearing a beard is not for our salvation, it is out of obedience to our Master. And if our Master requires a beard of us, then we shall grow a beard.


All,

Ultimatley, these issues are trivial compared to tending to ones soul but for those who have waged a great spirtual struggle and are ready, these are some of the deep riches of Orthodoxy which can help take you to the next steps.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

OOD,
I would have to say that I agree with Brendan.

As for myself, I am unable to have a beard. A beard could cause me to loose my life.

You see, I am a volunteer firefighter. No volunteer firefighter or fulltime firefighter can have a beard as it will make the seal between our air mask and face fail there by allowing superheated air and poisonous gases to enter our airway and lungs which will cause serious complications up to and including death.

Times change and clothing and grooming change. As long as we dress modestly and cleanly I see no problems.


David

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

OOD,

Is Stephen, the First Martyr, ever depicted wearing a beard in Byzantine iconography? Is salvation possible without a beard?

Joe

Only a Pharisee would say a person such as yourself would still need a beard.

Let's not take this out of context, the Church is by no means saying this is a "must" for salvation - not at all. What the Church is saying is that bottom line, God made man in His image and likeness so we should try to do and be as He intended to the best of our abilities, and that's it.

If one is not ready for such things, then it best be left alone. Most people are not ready to hear this type of talk because they are unable to see it's truth with spiritual eyes and think it is fanaticism or superstition. But I for one would not call St. John Chrysostom either.

Dear Joe,

I'm beginning to wonder . . .

Apart from salvation, I don't want to OOD on this (kidding), but there is a side issue that affects the matter of Latinization in the Ukie Catholic Church.

The wearing of a beard has long been considered a sign that one is returning to "Byzantine traditions" and is rejecting Latinization.

The Ukrainian Orthodox autocephalous movement in the 20's was determined to "de-Russify" Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and so beards were a no-no then, but they are making a comeback now.

So apart from the (important) question of whether we'll ever get into heaven without a beard, what is the convention in Orthodoxy today for priests and deacons?

Are they somehow "obliged" to wear a beard as part of the theology of them being icons of Christ?

You see how darn ignorant I am . . .

But I have yet to see a book on the subject on the shelves of my religious stores.

This is just a snippet . . .

Alex