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Boy, it's getting hot in here. Was this topic thread a trap layed out for me or what?

OrthodoxyOrDeath,

Your statement to Brendan was, "To say that Orthodox men *should* have a beard or at least some facial hair may not be popular but it is certainly not rubbish."

This statement can be taken as a value judgement. A judgement on the state of one's soul.

Because you say that an Orthodox man "should" have a beard, then one who doesn't is either not Orthodox or Orthodox in name only.

This is something we must be very careful about.

I think Romans 14 fits here;

Romans 14
1 As for the man who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not for disputes over opinions.
2 One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him.
4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;
11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
12 So each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Then let us no more pass judgment on one another, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.
15 If your brother is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died.
16 So do not let your good be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit;
18 he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for any one to make others fall by what he eats;
21 it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble.
22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God; happy is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves.
23 But he who has doubts is condemned, if he eats, because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

I know this is speaking of food here, but I do not think that it is a great stretch.

You are equating women and head coverings to men and beards when only the head coverings is mentioned within the scriptures. Unless I am mistaken.

After all, as Joe said, I have never seen St Stephen, the Protomartyr and Archdeacon, with a beard.


David

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

If you feel like you're experiencing a "close shave," please feel free to revert to my question about Orthodoxy and Monarchy any time!

I have also started a topic on the alleged Protestantism of Cyril Lucaris which may give you less of a bad hair day!

Alex

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Why does Archbishop Philip of the Antiochian Orthodox not wear a beard?

http://www.antiochian.org/Archdiocese/Bishops/philip_saliba.htm

Joe

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Is this what you call a verbal assualt? I feel like I am being buried and am only able to now give half-witted answers (although I'll bet everyone feels I've been half-witted for some time now).

This is my last post on the subject, everyone can judge for themselves the authenticity of the position I presented.

Alex, For as much as that form of government has benefited Orthodoxy, I feel there have been plenty of incompatibilities - "the best form of government is a good dictatorship". But what is "Good"?

Joe,

In case you have'nt by now heard, I am not in communion with Antioch, but we are thought fondly of by Jerusalem if that means anything

You may want to relegate your comparisions to the first 1900 years of the Church and not the last 100 because today, anything goes.

David,

I hope I clarified my position in my last post enough to avoid the misunderstanding that beards are the definition of Orthodoxy - that is not what I have said. But I am certain people will continue to misrepresent me this way.

Well I think in some samll way I am going to agree with OoD, and O Rum, about women and the veil. God Help Me The World I might Agree With These Two!

But to be sure the beard thing is a bit silly, and we want to keep David around fighting fires because I know I'm not going to do it

Sharon, I know what you are saying in your post, and I agree with the heart of. I mean I have no problem with women in pants at Mass nor do I have a problem with a woman who does not have her head covered in a veil at Mass. Women are not the property of men nor are they second to men - in the sense that women come from our rib and are here to exhalt us men. But I have to tell you, I do find those laced veils attractive on women. And they have the benefit of being both attractive and ennobling of the femmine nature. Clothing can do this believe it or not. And often for us men the clothing a woman wears can either encourage us to value that noble side of femminity or it can encourage us to look upon a woman as soley a sexual object to be gained. And outside of this there is something to be said of humility. But outside of the humility thing I think the laced veils described by defreitas are very attractive. I know most women today don't believe this - but a woman can look both sexualy attractive and edifying (if that is a word to use).

I give up, friends. Maximus tells us he finds the laced veils atractive. Elsewhere we are told women should cover their heads because otherwise men will be distracted by their beauty. It seems you can't win!!

K.

David Rose, pray for us

OOD,

Just wanted to know what your thoughts were on St. Stephen and his Grace, Philip.

Not only were the Hellenists and Gentile converts not mandated to be circumcised but I am not aware of any icons depicting them having to wear beards. Is there any iconographic canon stipulating that they had to wear beards? How about those peoples of particular stock who cannot grow beards?

Our Lord said to pluck out your eyes if they make you sin. Don't see many Orthodox Christians walking around with plucked out eyes, Antiochian or not.

I do have to agree that society has gone the other extreme and have learned to show better garments at parties than worshipping at Church. Expensive gown and tux for the Homecoming, but black T-shirt and logo for Church.


Joe

Guys,

Lace veils may be attractive, but they aren't terribly practical. (Same can be said for high heels...) As I recall, wearing these "mantillas" are also a terribly Latin practice. I read something about the mantillas specifically being worn in reparation for offenses against the Blessed Sacrament. (HORRORS!!! encouraging a Latinization!!!!!)

Wanna know what babies & toddlers just LOVE to grab at? Those lace veils. Not really conducive to keeping the head covered. You also have to wash 'em by hand, or on the delicate cycle. I'll keep my ties-behind-the-head poly/cotton voile schmattes.

As for looking to Leviticus for our rules to live by, ISTM that we tend to be quite selective. Who chooses which Levitical laws we observe, and which are "outmoded?" I dunno.

All this talk of externals as we head down the chute to Lent. Hmmmmmm.

Gotta go. Liturgy tonight. Oh - anybody who wants my job in church is welcome to it, but given our Tradition of congregational singing & the fact that I have a Big Voice, I'm unlikely to be silent...

Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

LOL! I suppose not Kurt. But I wonder... did the early Christian women wear laced veils or where they solid cloth hoods? A difference here. Because, I know personaly I hate those long scarfs the muslim women wear. Infact I think if life came to looking at women like that... I would have to cut my wrists. Either that over move to Alaska where the little Eskimo women track their way around in the big fur coats, that would have to be a life with more life, then a state of being with women dressed like eggs.

Sharon, I am Roman Catholic. And thanks for reminding me of the proper name of those laced veils - mantillas. I was unaware that babies would grab at them though. Maybe we could tie the babies hands behind their backs? And what's a little hand washing... I've washed by hand before and someting like a mantilla can't take all that long.

Dear Alex,

I appreciate your quick wit and Anglican sensitivity!

A happy and holy feast of King Charles the Martyr to you, dear brother!

Christ is baptized!
Marshall

Glory to Jesu CHrist!

Metropolitan Phillip usually has a very thin goatee of a beard that seems to grow longer and become more visible when he is going to the Holy Synod in Antioch. many of the Antiochian Bishops here and in Syria and Lebanon also have goatee type beards although some have full beards. In the US I have heard that The Metropolitan would like his Clergy to appear as western as possible, as a result, they are to wear suits and Clergy Shirts with Collars when not serving a service in the Church. Although allowed to have beards and longer hair, it is not usually encouraged by the Metropolitan. Bishop Basil has a full beard that is in moderate legnth and trimmed, his hair is of moderate clipped legnth. Convert clergy are more likely to embrace the longer hair and fuller beards than the ethnic clergy.

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

I don't know about that...I understand what you mean, though.

I just think about the extremely attractive (even that's a sort of understatement) Muslim girl on campus here the other day, walking around in Western clothes, but wearing the veil you speak of. She looked nice even with it on. She just kept staring at me while I walked...so I winked at her, she smiled approvingly, and I just kept walking on my way to class.

There's something to be said for those veils...

Well Mor maybe I should rethink my stance

This in a way begs another question: would you date (romanticly) a muslim woman? I had made my mind up some time ago that I would not marry a woman that is not catholic, so if she wasn't catholic she would have to convert prior to marriage. But as human nature is I wonder if this is reasonable. I mean what if you are pulled in by the physical beauty of... in this case a muslim woman... and you and her not only enjoy each others company but develope a real and sincere love for each other? What to do? Or what are your thoughts on this Mor Ephrem?

Well Maximus, I should first state outright that were I to get romantically involved with said Muslim woman or any woman of any sort, my black-belted girlfriend would get quite angry, and things could get ugly...so I hope you have my back...

Ideally, I would only look for a girl of same or extremely similar religion, and also similar or same cultural background, being second generation Indian myself.

But in my case, though I attend an Indian Orthodox parish with enough Indian girls, and for now consider myself Orthodox "in some sort of communion with the Pope of Rome" (although, as I've noted elsewhere, I'm not either Orthodox or Catholic officially, and I'm praying over where I think God might be requesting the "honour" of my presence, if my presence anywhere could be considered an honour at all...), I'm dating a Roman Catholic.

And though I'd said in the past to myself that I would look for a nice, attractive, smart, funny, etc. Indian girl, I found a nice, attractive, smart, funny, etc. Sicilian girl instead.

So much for "dating among one's own"...

The way I see it, you should leave such things as who you will spend the rest of your life with to God. He knows better than you or me. A friend once referred to it as "giving God the pen to write you a great love story"...I suppose that works.

With that said, God also asks us to do our part...He can get into any bar He wants, more because the bouncer would probably die upon looking at His Radiant Face than because he had a legit ID, but He won't do that...He doesn't date for you...you've got to do that yourself...can't let God have all the fun, you know.

So I would pray and look. And, in a sense, I'm equal opportunity, so I'll give almost anyone a chance (there are some girls, however, who are a no-no... ). I've been interested in Indian girls and non-Indian girls, Christian girls and non-Christian girls, etc. In the end, God has worked out a compromise for me.

I've often wondered if I would go through with it if I and a non-Christian had a chemistry going on. I thought about all the religious issues and stuff, and I figured in the end that, if I really surrendered the whole thing to God, He'd take care of me. So in that sense, if a Muslim girl's charms wooed me, and we liked each other, and love developed, and that was that, then I would take it to God in prayer...but I'd also stay in the relationship and see where it led us. Love is no respecter of religions...and maybe this is the "hopeless romantic" suddenly creeping out of me, but I figure all true love comes from God, and since the Spirit moves where It wants to, God can just as easily give the gift of true love to a Christian guy and a Muslim girl as he can give it to two Catholics who grew up in the same parish all their lives and are on fire for the Lord.

Also, human nature, as you note, is human nature. Before I could say I was a Christian, and before a Muslim girl could say she was a Muslim, the both of us were humans, and in a sense, that's always gonna have a role--a big role--to play. Not everyone can just say "my religion or bust"...I know I couldn't, if it was a matter of true love. For that matter, I couldn't say "my culture or bust" either.

So I guess what I'm trying to spit out is that I'd try to date within the same religion, but I won't say that definitively...if something was there, I'd go for it. But I wouldn't deny my faith for hers...and I wouldn't ask her to deny hers for mine (unless she wanted to...it would make things easier...but then it would be her choice completely, not mine). For in such a situation, one would be asking the other to do something they didn't want to do...one's freedom would be restricted, and, if I may paraphrase the episcopal motto of one of my friends, the late John Cardinal O'Connor, Archbishop of New York, "There can be no Love without Freedom".

(Note to the reader: my views are personal, and do not necessarily represent the official views and beliefs of the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church, or my mom.) :p

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Mor Ephrem ]