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http://www.praiseofglory.com/iconsnewskete.htm

interesting, some of the subjects. This is making an uproar on the Orthodox forums!! ha ha I think they're quite nice! Especially the one of Fr. Alexander Schmemann. Although I don't know why they didn't do an icon of Shmemmann, Meyendorff, Florovsky, and Lossky and title it, "New Pillars of Orthodoxy"!!! :-) By the way for the purists, the images don't have halos so they are not purporting to be icons of glorified saints, per se.

anastasios

How many Byzantine Catholic Churches do you know that have Icons of the Archbishop of Canterbury on their church interior walls? How many Byzantine Catholics do you know that would condone it considering the current state of moral decay the church he represents is in? With or without halo. When I go to church I want to be surrounded with Icons of Our Lord, the Blessed Mother, the Saints and Marytrs. Not the current CNN news stories no matter how wonderful they are or may be. But, then again, that's why I'm Orthodox Catholic.

OrthoMan

I agree someone has gone too far with this "icon', though as Anastasios points out the subjects are haloless. If it is from New Skete, they have gone off the deep end. I have no problem if someone wants to privately venerate Mother Maria, Fr Lev, Fr Alexander Men, Fr Alexander Schmemann, Mother Teresa or even, for whatever reason, Patriarch Athenagoras. Pope Paul VI made bad mistakes in prudential judgement that damaged the Church, and Dr Ramsey, while small-o orthodox in most ways AFAIK, was a born Protestant, not a canonized saint of the Church (but one can privately venerate anyone). This, if it is in church, goes too far according to Catholicism too.

I actually rather like the idea of a new-pillars-of-Orthodoxy icon with unhaloed Mother Maria, Fr Lev, Schmemann, Meyendorff, Florovsky and Lossky. For private devotion in your icon corner? Go for it!

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

"This is making an uproar on the Orthodox forums!!"

With good reason. It is a questionable thing to do. If a Roman Catholic Church installed a statue of the Archbishop of Canterbury next to the altar, I think there would be a lot of comments from many Latin Catholics about that.

"Although I don't know why they didn't do an icon of Shmemmann, Meyendorff, Florovsky, and Lossky and title it, "New Pillars of Orthodoxy"!!! :-)"

Here's why:

1. New Skete doesn't really care for folks like Florovsky and Lossky. These are too traditionalist for New Skete, and indicative of what many there would think as "wrongheaded Orthodox".

2. Fr. Schmemann was included in this group as a way of saying "See, we're the ones who follow Fr. Schmemann's ideas about liturgy" (New Skete has made many liturgical innovations). This is a misinterpretation of Fr. Schmemann -- he didn't actually call for new rites, he called for minor changes to rites and, above all, a much more thorough understanding of the rites that we have. In any case, it's likely that Fr. Schmemann (who was a traditionalist in many ways) would be rather scandalized at this portrayal as well.

3. There really is almost no precedent for having non-Orthodox portrayed on the walls of an Orthodox Church (just as there is no precedent for having statues of non-Catholics adorn the interior -- or exterior, really -- of Roman Catholic Churches). Halos or no halos, this goes over the line considerably in that regard.

4. Perhaps the most disappointing thing about this whole incident is that it seems certain that the Monks have done this to "make a statement". That isn't appropriate when it comes to church architecture or iconography, in my opinion.

Brendan

Well said, Brendan.

In any case, it's likely that Fr. Schmemann (who was a traditionalist in many ways) would be rather scandalized at this portrayal as well.

I think the same thing regarding Pope John XXIII (especially), Dorothy Day and Archbishop Oscar Romero, whose names have been exploited by heterodox spiritual wolves* in the Catholic communion.

*Metaphor from Russian prayers — real wolves are marvelous animals.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Friends,

I didn't understand Orthoman's statement - it was an Orthodox Christian who wrote these icons, was it not? What does that have to do with the Byzantine Catholic Church and why you are Orthodox?

If anything, we would definitely NOT have icons of Anglican Archbishops of Canterbury, to be sure.

So there are some Orthodox who are more "hip" than the "hippest" eh?

Oh - Oh! I just felt the wind caused by the Orthodox principles of canonization being hurriedly thrown out the window!

Fortunately, this is one problem that you Orthodox will have to deal with yourselves. The worst than can happen though is that you become a little less sanctimonious on a few fronts - kidding, kidding . . .

Anyway, in case you are interested in what this "Devil's Advocate" has to say on these subjects -

No problem with Maria Skobtsova, Day, Gillet, Teresa or Alexander. The first was Ukrainian, so what can I say? Gillet wasn't Ukrainian, but was Andrew Sheptytsky's former secretary and that's good enough . . .

Catholic or Orthodox, the first five have my blessing to be in my icon corner or anywhere else, anytime!

Fr. Alexander Men (two "Alexanders" - I think it's "Great") is already venerated as a saint by many and there are other icons with him haloed.

The Ecumenical Athenagoras won't sit well with a lot of traditional Orthodox (are they sure he was a freemason?).

Pope Paul VI may have made mistakes but they don't affect his holiness, anymore than the political errors of Tsar Nicholas can impact his sanctity. He died with a hair-shirt on and he practiced many austerities and was otherwise very holy.

I don't know much about Michael Ramsay. I think I prefer William Temple.

Someone like William Laud of Canterbury probably should be honoured as a Martyr universally and there are many Anglican saints who have the same kind of universal appeal for their holiness.

Not sure about Michael, though.

And if this is what New Skete is now producing, their veneration of Sts. Francis and Clare are the least of anyone's worries!

For any converts to Orthodoxy who are now in a bit of turmoil over this, yes, you may return to the Byzantine Catholic Church, you can pass "GO" and make a collection as you find your way Home - there is no real monopoly here.

I hope I'm not making too light of this . . . But if you think you aren't going to "get it" from some of us for your sanctimony to Byzantine Catholics over Latinization etc., you've got another thing coming!

You know I love you all!

Alex

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

My priest, 100% Russian Byzantine in church, doesn't like the place and calls it "New Skit', but I never had a problem with it (until now?) based on what I've seen on the Web or its dog-training books. I even have been to St Nicholas, the nominally Bulgarian, all-English-using OCA church in Fort Wayne, Indiana, which used the New Skete translation of the Divine Liturgy (but with a conventional iconostasis, not NS's rood-screen-like one). I don't remember being offended by anything. I'd have to see NS ceremonial (which looks pretty good online in pictures — like good Roman Catholic liturgical movement, Byzantine style) to decide what I think.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Please let us know what conclusion you come to about New Skit, whether you still like them or whether you think they are going to the dogs - in more ways than one . . .

And I thought it was going to be a boring day . . .

Alex

"I hope I'm not making too light of this . . . But if you think you aren't going to "get it" from some of us for your sanctimony to Byzantine Catholics over Latinization etc., you've got another thing coming!"

Okay, touche, Alex ... but remember where they came from.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Good to have you back here, "O" Boy!

Yes, where they came from . . .

So I guess we can deduce two things (let me play the lawyer right now):

Either they've gotten worse since becoming Orthodox and the whole experience hasn't helped OR (give me room, give me room), there really isn't anywhere secure people can run to anymore whenever their traditionalist sensibilities are violated.

O.K. you Byzantine Catholics who are thinking of becoming Orthodox. You might as well just stay where you are!

At least we don't iconographize Anglican Archbishops.

Doesn't Serge have a thing or two to say about the Anglican church and its orders? I thought I heard him mention something at one point ...

And Brendan, if you decide to write to New Skete to give them a piece of your mind, for Heavens' sake don't make any reference to that representation of Malcolm X we talked about before!

Don't give them any more ideas.

Why do I fell so happy all of a sudden?

It must be the humble(d) company I am now with!

Alex

Саша,

I still don't know about New Skete but with the Harry Potter-like tool of Photoshop may cut and paste my own version of the icon with Mother Maria, Fr Lev (grounded in Russian Orthodoxy but straddling the Catholic-Orthodox divide, someone I can identify with — and he even lived in England too) and the two Frs Alexander, then go to the copying/printing chain store here and print it.

My priest has read the biography of Fr Lev by Elisabeth Behr-Sigel and knew of him before that — he told me when Fr Lev lived in England and was chaplain of the Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius, he never practiced inter-Communion. Not with Roman Catholics, not with Anglicans. Never. Even though he was really a Catholic priest all along (he went to Confession in the boxes at Westminster Cathedral) — the latest I've read is that Metropolitan Andrew may have acting on Pope Pius XI's order when he gave Fr Lev permission to transfer to Metropolitan Evlogy in Paris in 1928. (No conspiracy to snag Orthodox conversions with a secret agent, though — AFAIK Fr Lev never solicited any Orthodox to leave.) A new angle on the top-secret agreement between the two metropolitans.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

My dear and beloved Friend, Serge,

That is all very nice, Syergyey, but aren't we skirting the real issue here?

The best that Brendan can do right now is to source the problem with New Skete with the fact that they were former Eastern Catholics.

Now, if that is his best shot, I'll turn my cheek more than once! And he can give me a few in the bread-basket too while he's at it.

If you don't wish to comment further, we'll all understand, right guys?

But it is too bad we don't have another picture here of you to see the bright red colour in your face!

I kind of like red!

O.K., O.K. I'll lay off. I know it's not nice.

Alex

Саша,

So far I haven't seen Brendan blame this image on New Skete's former Catholic affiliation. Plus, I can't think of any BC group who would do such a thing. Certainly not the Orthodox-oriented, and the Latin-oriented are afraid to depict postschism Orthodox, let alone Anglicans. No, this sad turn reminds me of the liturgical experiments at the liberal St Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church* in San Francisco — very pretty, done by bright, creative people with some great ideas, but heterodox.

* www.saintgregorys.org/ [saintgregorys.org] They have an "icon' along the base of the church dome depicting bloody (literally) Protestant Elizabeth I of England, Malcolm X (who would have laughed his Nation of Islam-turned-real Muslim black a*s off at these multidegreed white liberals), Mohandas Gandhi and others doing a circle dance.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

But they weren't! They were Latins!

(OK, at least one of their monks is an ethnic Carpathian Person(tm), but he was born & raised Orthodox.)

Alex,

Interesting that your sudden turn for the "ha ha told you so" occurred in post #666! :-)

anastasios