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But they weren't! They were Latins!

Righto. Actually I've been told the real reason no Byzantine Catholic bishop would take them (they were Roman Catholics who formed a Franciscan friary that AFAIK exclusively used the Byzantine Rite) was they were too Byzantine. "And isn't it ironic... don'tcha think?' So they remained under the Roman Catholic bishop of Albany, NY until they joined the OCA.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Anastasios,

If you are defending the Orthodox, please be my guest. They need ALL the help they can get from anyone right now.

Certainly, some Orthodox would see in this turn of events something to do with the Antichrist, to be sure.

And, for the record, I am not telling them "I told you so."

Rather, I am trying to haul them up on the carpet for years of telling us, "I told you so."

But to be respectful of the Orthodox, should I now refer to Ramsey as "Our Father among the Saints" or else "The Holy Confessor?"

What title would be appropriate here?

I see I have a future with New Skete writing Akathists . . .

Anastasios, you aren't going to deny me having a little fun with this, are you?

Alex

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Serge,

Sorry! Sorry! But you Orthodox generally think of us all as papists anyway, don't you?

All of a sudden, the slightest tangent on this issue becomes latched onto to avoid talking about the obvious.

I understand that, of course. I wouldn't feel good about it either.

Not a good day to be Orthodox, I suppose.

As for Brendan, did I misread him when he stated that I should pay attention to "where they (New Skit) came from?"

I think I interpreted that correctly. If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear it directly from the "O Boy" himself.

Now, for my next, er, question, Sergey, (I wish I could give you a hug for all the happiness I am feeling right now!), do you think some of the New Skit fellows would feel right at home at that Episcopal Church with Elizabeth I and Malcolm X?

Would you like me to find out?

Yours in Our Father among the Saints, Michael of Canterbury,

Alex

Dear RichC,

You are right, sorry.

But come and join me as we happily kick up our heels over this issue.

It's enough to make one bring back liturgical dance . . .

Alex

Alex,

You don't sound well. Perhaps you should take some time off from here.

I thought Brendan's words "where they came from' referred to latinizations (and your taunt about Catholics-turned-Orthodox complaining about them), not to New Skete or to Byzantine Catholics.

Michael Ramsey IMO was the last (and possibly the last ever) great Anglican archbishop of Canterbury — small-o orthodox, and high church for the establishment in his day.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

I can assure you the results of my medical tests just came in and I am rather healthy . . . As a matter of fact, I haven't been this congenial and happy for a long time. I just might win the lottery soon, the way I'm feeling.

What's the matter, can't take it? The Orthodox are sensitive, especially the convert ones, aren't they?

I didn't write those icons, you know. It's too bad the New Skete monks aren't on this Forum. Perhaps we're too traditional for them after all.

And as for Brendan's comment, not only are the New Skete Monks of Catholic descent, so is the OCA - and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, if you want me to be really unbiased.

Again, for those Orthodox (not you, my sensitive friend) who think the Byzantine Catholics are a contradiction or otherwise "bad," I guess the New Skete experiment shows that one can go from "bad" to "worse."

So I guess you don't mind Michael Ramsey being "up there?"

And whenever Orthodox look at the icon of Paul VI, I guess they will finally be "recognizing the Pope!"

If you want me to leave this forum, go ahead and excommunicate me.

It will have the same canonical status as a few other things some members of your Church have been up to.

But I will go, giggling all the way!

Alex

What's the matter, can't take it? The Orthodox are sensitive, especially the convert ones, aren't they?

Uncalled for. Apologize.

I didn't write those icons, you know. It's too bad the New Skete monks aren't on this Forum. Perhaps we're too traditional for them after all.

That would be cool, if one of the fathers has the blessing of the игумен to write here.

And as for Brendan's comment, not only are the New Skete Monks of Catholic descent, so is the OCA - and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, if you want me to be really unbiased.

I know. As, of course, is Johnstown. The OCA and Johnstown are also the only ones who have bishops show up at the March for Life (antiabortion) in the American capital every year.

Again, for those Orthodox ... who think the Byzantine Catholics are a contradiction or otherwise "bad," I guess the New Skete experiment shows that one can go from "bad" to "worse."

Good point! 'Doxing doesn't guarantee holiness in the convert. A warning to many of us.

So I guess you don't mind Michael Ramsey being "up there?"

For private use, no, I don't mind. In church (as I understand this image is), тысяча раз, ДА!

And whenever Orthodox look at the icon of Paul VI, I guess they will finally be "recognizing the Pope!"

Preschism Popes already are, as Popes, and in ROCOR liturgical books, no less.

Этот образ, одным словом: ПРЕЛЕСТЬ.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Alex,

You seem to be taking a perverse pleasure out of New Skete having an icon of Ramsey and others. I personally really don't care, myself. First, I don't live in that monastery-- it doesn't really affect me. Second, New Skete does not represent Orthodoxy, and most do not take them seriously anyway. It seems a little strange to have the Ramsey icon--I mean, what did the guy do, anyway, that he should be sainted by whomever?

But your sarcastic tone, and trying to take a jest at Orthodox, is wrong. You are making a big deal out of something that most Orthodox don't really care about, i.e. what the New Skete people do.

If an Orthodox said nasty things about Catholics, I would defend Catholics. If a Catholic says something sarcastic and rude to Orthodox, I will defend the Orthodox.

So the answer is no, I will not just "let you have your fun" and kick your heels up. Why don't you kick your heels up about something worthy such as a nice date with your wife, or a good movie?

anastasios

Dear Anastasios and Serge,

Obviously my fun has gone on too long and I apologise.

I honestly do believe, and call me what you want for this, that somehow there is a "political correctness" here about saying things about the Orthodox that do not apply when said about the Byzantine Catholics.

It is almost as if we BC's have to take it with a smile when we're told the Unia was wrong, the BC Church is a contradiction etc.

I really don't see many running to our defence when that happens but Orthodoxy is well policed and is taboo.

If what I've said is "preverse" then I don't accept that estimation, but do apologize.

Next time I read an Orthodox saying something sanctimonious and critical about the BC's, I'll try that on them and see who'll come on board with me.

New Skete is, in fact, mainstream Orthodox and they are so recognized by the Moscow Patriarchate.

I find your reactions quite boorish, guys, and have to say that this is where I sign off for a good, long vacation from the Forum.

And if a prerequisite to being Orthodox is to not have a sense of humour, then I guess I'm staying Catholic.

With regrets,

Your perverse and unhealthy servant

Alex of blessed memory

Thanks for the apology, Alex. I wonder if Metropolitan Theodosius and/or the OCA eparch for New York state (Archbishop Peter?) know about the new image in New Skete's katholikon. As it is being publicized all over the Internet now, I imagine if His Beatitude and/or His Eminence object to that painting, it will come down pronto or else New Skete will go independent.

http://oldworldrus.com

They do have a beautiful (and legitimate) icon of Ss. Sergius and Bacchus, which I am grateful to have a copy of.

Axios

www.axios.net [axios.net]
http://www.eskimo.com/~nickz/axios.html

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]

Their past affiliation with the Diocese of Albany, where I go to school, might explain the weirdness. I don't like going to church up there...I always feel bad after "Eucharist" there, and end up wishing I never went, but instead prayed elsewhere...

Their past affiliation with the Diocese of Albany, where I go to school, might explain the weirdness. I don't like going to church up there...I always feel bad after "Eucharist" there, and end up wishing I never went, but instead prayed elsewhere...

Having experienced that elsewhere, I know what you mean. Eew. You may be onto something.

http://oldworldrus.com

Alex wrote:
And as for Brendan's comment, not only are the New Skete Monks of Catholic descent, so is the OCA - and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, if you want me to be really unbiased.

As a slightly OT issue, I'm always amused at this comment. Out here on the West Coast, we don't have onion-domed churches with 3-bar crosses in every town with old cornerstones that say 'St. N. Greek-Catholic Church.'

While numerically the OCA is made up of former Catholics, out here that is almost non-existent. The Diocese of SF and the West is much more "Great Russian" than back east.
Eastern Catholicism is also extremely sparse out here, and if it were not (partly) for this forum, I would personally know nothing about a large chuck of American Orthodoxy (and Eastern Catholicism).

God Bless,

Michael

Glory to Jesus Christ!

It is allowable in an Orthodox Church to paint Iconographic representations of ORTHODOX people who have reposed and are known to have lived Holy Lives prior to their glorification. An example of this would be the many iconographic paintings of His Grace Bishop Raphael of Brooklyn after his repose in many Antiochian Orthodox Churches in the U.S. In all of these situations they are represented without Halos and are a matter of private veneration and devotion.

I am uncertain as to the reason Roman Catholic or Anglican spiritual leaders would be allowed to be depicted within the church as they are not of Orthodox patrimony.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas