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Many Orthodox would not be so bold as the author of the articles in accepting the authenticity of all apparitions of the Virgin Mary, having grave reservations about the real origin of what was seen in Medjugorje in particular.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

Ultimately, only those apparitions, miracles approved by Orthodox Church authorities could be accepted by Orthodox Christians, is this not true?

Alex

Fr Mark,

It must also be rmembered that the Latin Church is still not 'happy" about the events at Medjugorje either.

Anhelyna

My personal opinion as an Orthodox Christian is rather skeptical toward visions of anyone by anyone; I am especially apprehensive about visions that speak of new doctrines, devotions, "messages for mankind" and so forth. I see the fruits of many of these visions in the West being rather pietistical, and seem to think that belief in the devotion, with its accompanying "miracles" and "promises", will save you. I suppose it's one thing if a vision appeared and said "Follow the Gospel of My Son" but that is rare. They usually go off and start talking about things to do to appease a vengeful God who is on the verge of destroying the planet in (name year), devotions to Immaculate Bodyparts or what not. I've met sincere Catholics who are really into visions; their faith is almost dependant on it. They follow things visions request, and take them seriously. I've also met people in the East who are into mind-reading staretzy, visions of Saint Sergius with buckets of prosphora, oozing icons, glowing relics, stories of people having fantastical visions. I can see a place for these things, but the sensational wind and fire often holds more of an attraction than the small still voice of God.

Please don't take me the wrong way. I'm not saying I don't believe in miraculous activity, or the possibility of a vision. I just take it with a cup of kosher salt, and don't read too much into it. Often, I believe it is for the person who receives it and for them alone.

"And [the rich man] said, 'Then I beg you, father [Abraham], to send [the poor man Lazarus] to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

We have Moses, the Prophets, the Gospel, the Apostles, the whole of the Church and, most importantly, We have the One risen from the dead, Who conquered death by His own death and granted life to those in the tombs. What more do we need?

Dave

Dear Dave,

Certainly, there is a school of thought that sees the emphasis on visions and apparitions in the West as a result of a hitherto weak liturgical life among Catholic laity.

Previously, Catholic laity had their separate "sphere" of liturgical existence - they would say the Rosary during Mass as if the Mass were the thing that priests do.

I actually wrote my Bachelor's Honours thesis on this very issue, the role of laity and priesthood in the Catholic Church after Vatican II.

One could say that Orthodoxy has as many miraculous icons and apparitions as the West (if not more, taking into account the locally-venerated icons of which there are many, according to Prof. Poselianin).

But there is a hierarchy of values in liturgical life in Orthodoxy that has always held sway in terms of Divine Liturgy, Horologion (open to laity as well), Jesus Prayer etc.

The RC Church is now emphasizing greater participation of the laity in its liturgical life.

But ultimately, if an icon wishes to weep and if an apparition occurs (such as at Zeitoun, Egypt), there is very little we can do except experience it and try to fulfill whatever religious exhortations are imparted to us, with the approval of the Church, of course.

And one never knows when God or the Mother of Christ will choose to make the Divine known to us.

These things come as a surprise.

God is a God of surprises.

Alex

Orthodoxy shows a great spiritual realism in recognising that not all spiritual experiences come form the Spirit of Truth. Any one of us may fall to the sin of prelest - delusion. The devil can appear as an angel, as a siant, as the Mother of God, or as the Lord himself. If we accept these blindly, or any sign or wonder without testing and suspicion we may loose our souls.

There is the story of the monk visited by an 'angel'. He wouldn't leave his cave and the abbot had to climb up to where the deceived monk awaited the 'angel' who was to carry him to heaven. When the vision appeared and took hold of the monk the abbot grabbed the monk's feet and refused to let go. In the end the mantia was ripped from the monk's body and the angel shot into the heavens. Not long later the mantia fell to the ground. The abbot looked at his spiritual child and said, "You see that mantle falling to the earth? That was meant to be you!"

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

I recall a similar story (paraphrased): a hermit was visited by what appeared to be an angel who said "You are great in the eyes of God, so I have been sent here to you." The abba was careful and said, "If you are truly an angel of the Lord, this is a great blessing. If not," and he made the sign of the cross and said "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!" and the "angel" fled away, revealing that it really wasn't of God.

I'm glad you brought up Zeitoun, Alex, because I've always considered how different it was from the usual types of "personal revelation" visions of the West. You have the Theotokos appear radiantly on top of a church, not to one person, but to thousands of onlookers at a time. She was silent, not saying anything; maybe her action spoke to the crowd: GO TO CHURCH!

The "vision and miracle phenomenon" in recent history is interesting. Sometimes they all seem to follow the same patterns. I wonder if there is a correlation between the media's spead of reports of "visions and miracles" and the manner and location of their occurrance. Someone suggested something similar with UFO abductions...

I am glad the Church scrutinizes apparitions and miracles. Often, though, even if the church says "no" the people say "yes yes" and support them. I do think it is a positive thing that the Roman church does not require one to accept any of the visions it deems okay.

It doesn't help that these happenings are sensationalistic and draw crowds (and $$$). I read a story the other day about a hospital in Massachusets that has a window with what appears to be an outline of the Virgin Mary. People are flocking to it, light candles before it, gather and pray before it. And it is probably just due to leaky insulation. "Believers" don't want to hear any of it.

If you are in my church at night, you might see the face on the icon of Christ in the iconostas illumined. An outdoor light from the parish hall reflects through a window and hits Our Lord smack dab in the face. Was this planned? No. Is it an interesting coincidence? Yes. Is it cute? Yes. Is it a miracle? Nope. If we started holding night-time tours and claimed it was of divine origin would crowds gather? Sadly, they probably would. People are thirsty and often like to be satiated with the wild, weird and sensational instead of Living Water.

Has this thread gotten off topic? heh

Dave

Glory to God for all things!

Fr. Mark, bless me a sinner

Dear Alex,

I think it would be a grave mistake for Byzantine Catholics, especially Russian Byzantine Catholics to "avoid" Our Lady of Fatima. She is reponsible for the conversion of Russia ( i. e. the collapse of the Soviet Union and its Eastern European empire. ) Pope John Paul II led the Byzantine and Roman Catholic bishops in a collegial consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart. This collegial consecration was carried out at the request of Our Lady of Fatima.

The Fatima message has had a particular importance to Byzantines due to 1) our importance in healing the schism with the Orthodox Church, 2) the Communist persecution of so many Greek Catholics in the Russian, Ukrainian, and Eastern European homelands, 3) the role of Byzantines in promoting and sustaining devotion to the Bogoroditza Fatimskaya.

Most Holy Theotokos of Fatima, save us.
Holy Russian Orthodox-Catholic New Martyrs and Confessors, pray to God for us.

Dear Russian Orthodox-Catholic,

If you think I'm going to disagree with you, you're wrong on that, Big Guy!

I've met Orthodox who affirm Fatima and who also believe it relates to the resurrection of Orthodoxy in Russia today.

I also believe Fatima and St Seraphim of Sarov's mission are closely related too.

Alex

Dear Chtec,

Well, we had a bona fide UFO over our home some years back and it was quite scary.

It moved away, on its side, as we prayed . . .

A fellow had been tracking it for about three hours and our home address made it into a formal report that was later submitted to the federal government in Ottawa, care of the space program.

Funny, I always considered that government to be in outer space . . .

Alex

Bishop Alexander is partly right. Russian Orthodoxy would be Catholic, meaning in full communion with the Papacy, keeping her rituals and practices. The fact of the matter is that a great majority of Russians wouldn't go over to Roman Catholicism. If Roman Catholics think that it means conversion to the Roman Rite, then they greatly misunderstand what Our Blessed Mother says at Fatima. One example is Greece. I'm sure everyone saw the protest of the Papal trip to Greece. Do you think that the Greek Bishops, Priests, monastics, etc are going to accept the Roman Rite? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jakub, this is similar to what Soloviev posited. It is also consistent to the ancient idea of the Kyivan metropolitans regarding dual communion.

Don't forget March 7 is the feast of St. Leonid Federov (one of my patrons!!!) St. Leonid, pray to God for us.