www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Criticizing the Roman Catholic Church

What is the role of Eastern Catholics, to sit at the back of the bus and keep quiet or to speak out when we see the Roman Catholic Church doing something wrong?

I was just accused of "trashing" the Roman Catholic Church. This makes me wonder what the answer to the above question is.

Let's be honest here, the Roman Catholic Church has trashed its liturgy. Some American bishops are probably heretics. What the Roman Church needs to do is return to its roots and we should be allowed to say that.

Well, you could always just be honest and let those who don't like it be unhappy. I do think at times we tend to worry too much about what those opposed to us will think. But I do keep in mind that the Latin Church is so large, its problems also tend to be on a large scale. If it were tiny, we wouldn't hear all that much about it. Yes, the Church has problems, many of which come from the societies in which it lives. I am encouraged by the newer bishops and priests who are coming along. They seem to me to be more orthodox than their predecessors. I see that as a good sign.

Be kind and honestly care for our Roman brothers. Who cares what others think if you follow those directives? I certainly don't.

Dan L

Greetings Jennifer,

I am just another member like yourself, I cannot speak for the management but I do have some ideas about how this place has worked for us. This message board has been used on a number of occasions (in the time I have been reading) for Latin church members to trash the Eastern churches.

Mostly, the criticism has to do with our theology, which some people have a hard time accepting. Many Westerners like to portray us as heretics and work diligently to convert us! The Administrator has been pretty good at bottling up these discussions.

This board is primarily for Eastern Christians, Orthodox and Catholic, to exchange ideas, grow in Faith and knowledge, etc. It has a pretty good reputation for that purpose.

That means in fairness we (hopefully) also will not discuss the shortcomings of the Western church, except in the most charitable terms when the discussion touches upon common Eastern/Western concerns.

Of course, the Papacy rises (or raises itself) above the Particular churches. It is actually an Eastern and Western concern and I see it as open to discussion.

We just want to be as fair as possible and not dump on the Western church merely because we disagree with it's theology or it's liturgical forms.

In Christ Always,
Michael

To be blunt, Jennifer, it sounds to me like it is more your attitude than what you are saying. We are totally allowed to criticize our shepards, but only in charity. Saying things like the RCC has "trashed its liturgy" doesn't qualify, so I'm not surprised you got criticized for this - you should have been. I personally love the new liturgy - and note that I ALSO love the Eastern liturgy (I'm no modernist liberal). I in no way think it is "trash", and it is an insult to suggest such a thing about a legitimate liturgy of a legitimate Church.

Are some American bishops heretics? Probably, but I'm not going to judge their souls. I will resist them when they promote heresy, however, again in charity. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find many devout Catholics who will not criticize our bishops. However, in all honesty I think one should in general stick to their own bishops when it comes to critiquing them. I don't feel like I should criticize Eastern Catholic bishops, because they are not my direct shepards and I don't know all the ins and outs of their situation. In the same way, Eastern Catholics should be hesitant to criticize Latin bishops, since they don't necessarily know the whole situation. This, of course, is a rule that can have exceptions.

I'm glad that you are enthusiastic for maintaining the Faith, Jennifer - we need more people like that in the Church. But perhaps you should remember to keep on the lookout for the plank before searching for the specks elsewhere. Time is better spent building up your Church rather than taking down another, and, in fairness, you are not the arbitor of what the Roman Church "needs to do" - our bishops are.

Dear Xenia, Esq.

(If you prefer, "Jennifer" but an Orthodox-sounding name is good ).

Who accused you of trashing the RC Church? I thought that the name of your thread was the original name of this forum . . .

I think that many RC's who appreciate the Christian East do so out of a longing for the "good old days" of the Tridentine Liturgy, but not all are like that.

If our Church appears more mystical, then why shouldn't Westerners be interested in us?

A candidate for the Greek-CAtholic priesthood was being examined at the home of Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky.

The RC priest who was part of the examining committee then slipped in the question: "And which Rite is greater, the Latin or the Greek?"

The candidate replied: "The Latin Rite, Father."

The Latin priest responded, "The Latin Rite is no where near in beauty to the Greek, my friend!"

Alex

Jennifer,

It is only your opinion that the Roman Catholic Church has trashed its liturgy. It is not a demonstrable fact, or an opinion held by the majority of Roman Catholics. It is very appropriate for one to speak with �I believe that�.� It is not appropriate for you (or anyone) to make such sweeping generalizations.

We Byzantines do care about our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. Yes, at times they have treated us poorly and sometimes continue to treat us poorly. But even if they sometimes treat us poorly we never have a right to treat them poorly. One can engage in real debates about issues without being judgmental.

Admin

To be clear, Administrator accused me of "trashing" the RC for criticizing a book about the RC. I thought that was a bit much. The RC is not a book. A book about the RC can be criticized.

My statement about the liturgy was sweeping, however, I believe the Novus Ordo was a tragic mistake. Traditionalist Roman Catholics agree with me and say the same things on their message boards.

The Roman Catholic Church should be criticized for replacing its ancient liturgy with a 'liturgy by committee.'

Dear Xenia, Esq.

(You're not going to threaten to sue me because I'm calling you "Xenia" are you? )

Well, as long as we recognize that there are many RC's who are faithful servants of Christ and who use the Novus Ordo Liturgy etc., everything should be just peachy!

And the Administrator is actually very nice, once you get to know him!

Alex

Jennifer,

You seem to be a bit edgy. Perhaps it is because of your recent disappointments with some things in the RCC. Fair enough. However, it's probably not particularly healthy if you intend to make that the principle reason for switching. The liturgical changes do seem to be a serious matter and some of those changes are being challenged by RC's and they certainly have that right. But we can't change their liturgy. We have some problems of our own. Let's pray for them. Many of us would not be BC today if we had found fulfillment in the way the NO was being offered and if we hadn't noticed some serious problems with it. But, we aren't RC. If we believe God is with them and we trust God's working in their lives then we must trust that God will guide them out of their problems. We have our hands full not only with the meeting the expectations that the great BC heritage places upon us but also with the problems we face within.

Dan L

Jennifer,

What you are expressing is the opinion of many people, but certainly a minority in the Latin Church. At the same time, the way you are expressing it is offensive to many people here, some of whom have complained directly to me.

As our esteemed administrator has said, please express your opinion as opinion and not as fact, tone down the rhetoric, and be respectful of a Church with 1 billion followers of Christ.

Thank you.

Fr. Deacon Edward, moderator

My friend Jennifer,

I believe you are being influenced by certain Orthodox brethern from else where.

I am a Traditional Latin at heart, but I do love and admire my Eastern brethern.

By the way, else where I tried defending the Roman & Eastern Church, I did not see you assisting.

One can voice their concerns about the Church, but in a charitable way.

Prayer and honest loving discussions is the way I choose, things did not come about in a day.

I truly treasure this forum, it is loving and caring 99% of the time.

In prayer for the Church,

james

Allright, it's my opinion that they trashed their liturgy. It's very disappointing to me as someone born into the western Church.

I'm actually very disappointed that people complain to the moderators when they see a post critical of the Roman Catholic Church.

Dear Xenia, Esq.,

People complain to the administrator and the moderators about me all the time!

Yes, I too know it's hard to believe . . .

In my case, sometimes it means I've said something that no one has heard of before and can't believe that it is so because they haven't heard of it before.

Other times, it means I'm being unneccesarily mean or vulgar!

But that's just me . . .

Alex

I like this honest discussion because religion has become a matter of family tradition, a moral habit with some social benefit. It appeals to the emotions and the mind so we have these intense arguements, but they will lead to action and reflection. These discussions not only give emotional energy and intellectual stimulation, but also takes the sincere beyond the mind to a spiritual experience. Therefore, one should not be lost in the words alone, but in the experience, the realization of those words. The spoken and written words are not the goal; the end is not in the words themselves because they are just the rule, the standards to show us the way to a blissful, loving experience in life. That spirutual experience teaches without the noise of words because its obvious goal is the intimate union with Christ consciousness. This union with Christ is like a drop of water losing itself in the ocean, yet there are as many approaches to this ocean of God's love as there are Christians, churches and temples.