www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Criticizing the Roman Catholic Church

Jennifer,

Let me be very clear. I believe that you are indeed �trashing� the Roman Catholic Church because in the two weeks since you have registered on the Forum the majority of your posts have included some sort of criticism about the Roman Catholic Church. This is highly suspicious behavior for someone who claims to be here to learn about the East (which you also seem to regularly criticize). Please modify your behavior to include charity.

Admin

Dear Jennifer, Esq.

All right, you've made yourself clear(er) to me and I withdraw my comments since I obviously misunderstood much of what you said.

I still don't quite understand where your coming from and this is why.

You are a traditional Roman Catholic, as you said, but you ask what the role of the papacy is about.

All right, I'll bite.

How is that possible?

Alex

Dear Anastasios,

I have no "opponent" here and Jennifer is not my opponent.

I'm trying to understand her (you are another story ).

And you're probably right in most of the criticism you have of me.

Yes, RC's have the right to criticize the Novus Ordo.

But there are limits.

I'd like to see Orthodox Christians engage in a similar critical process that you feel is just fine for Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics.

When you become Orthodox, if you aren't already, you just might find that the same kind of ecclesial criticism that you feel is great for Catholicism - would NOT be tolerated by Orthodox Hierarchs and priests.

Don't tell me I'm wrong just yet - wait and find out for yourself, as a number of my friends who "doxed" have!

As for your comments about St Charles and Hus - they are O.K. and I also know Orthodox who honour them.

Please salute your wife for me and tell her how much I admire her for being such a needed balance in your life!

Alex

Dear Bill,

Thank you for that great compliment!

I couldn't feel better today!

The more I engage in this thread, the clearer it is to me what a hopeless Papalist I really am! AND how much I truly honour the most revered Roman Catholic Church!

I just love it to smithereens!

Viva Il Papa!!

(I think I"ll start wearing my Papal Arms lapel pin again . . .)

Alex

Here is the problem, Jennifer, that I think is upsetting everyone. You make humongously broad statements that you have absolutely no way of verifying. You say "most RC parishes are a disaster". Is that so? You've been to most RC parishes in the world (or even in the U.S), studied them, and determined they are a disaster? This is preposterous. I've moved around a bit, and been a member of a number of RC parishes. Every one of them have been great. Are there terrible parishes out there? Of course. Are there more "bad" than "good" out there? I have no idea - and neither do you. Over 150,000 people convert to Catholicism in the U.S. each year - do you really think this is possible if "most" parishes are a disaster?

I for one LOVE the Norvus Ordo. Why? Because I find that, due to it's simplicity, it is a very good re-creation of the first Last Supper. I find that I can put myself in the upper room with Jesus and his apostles during a NO Mass and really live out the Pascal mystery again and again. This has been very spiritually uplifting and reverant for me.

However, I find the Eastern Liturgy a very good re-creation of the last Last Supper - the Heavenly Banquet. I imagine that is what worship will be like in heaven. If I didn't feel obligated to be a member of one parish, I think I would alternate each week between my RC parish and a local Melkite parish. I would be firmly living on earth but reminded of my final destination!

Your comments indicate that you think it is impossible to be spiritually uplifted by the NO Mass. This is what I think is insulting. Just because you do not find it spiritually uplifting, do not assume that others do not. You have equated your personal opinion with reality.

I want to make it clear that you have the right to the opinion that the NO Mass is not uplifting for you, or that there are problems in the Church (God knows there are). But please remember how much of that is your subjective, limited perspective.

Also, I find it odd that you want to tell Eastern Catholics how they should act, when you have been one in spirit (but not in fact) for just a few weeks. Don't you think it best to soak up more of their life before giving advice? Just a thought.

Alex, I have never claimed to be a traditional Roman Catholic. I sometimes attend the latin Mass and agree with the traditionalist criticisms of the new Mass. I am not a full blown trad because I believe the Mass should be in the vernaclar. I also don't like Roman triumphantism.

How is possible that I am what I am? Because I'm a real person, not a stereotype.

I don't fit into any neat little box.

As for my struggles with the papacy, obviously I can't convince you that I'm sincere so I won't try anymore.

Francis, I think you, like everyone else, is being way too sensitive here.

I don't deny that you can be "spiritually uplifted" by the NO.

However, the Novus Ordo is fundamentally different from the Tridentine Mass (in my humble opinion, of course). In my opinion, it represents a disastrous break with tradition in the latin Church.

My opinion is shared by many within the latin Church.

Francis, here's the problem: the Mass is not the recreation of the Last supper. It is the representation of the Passion of Christ. One of the main complaints of Tridentine Catholics is that the Novus Ordo leads people to believe the Mass is a symbolic representation of the Last Supper, which according to Catholic doctrine, it is not.

Anastasios

Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer,- as a fairly recent Byzantine, and a former Roman, I must say that the problem that your new friends here are having is with your tone. Personally, though never a full-blown Latin Mass guy- too many oddballs, too long a drive- I do have problems with the Novus Ordo, and I have seen it done well, by priests of traditional sensibilities. For one thing, they sorely need to turn that priest around; facing the people for the whole Mass is too much a temptation for the average guy. Most just ham it up: priest as stand-up comedian, or, to the more serious minded, talk-show host.
That said, what is the point of belaboring this? If you are here, and seeking the Eastern light, why do you feel impelled to go on and on about the perceived problems of the West?
No offense, but you remind me of an old lady in my Ruthenian parish, an exile from Latin Catholicism, who spends most of her time bewailing the state of the Roman Church. I want to shake her "hey, lady! wake up! it's over! "...
Please exhibit positive attraction toward that which you are embracing, not mere reaction to that from which you are escaping.
-Daniel, a fellow, though contented, refugee

Perhaps - and in all likelihood - she was just trying to make you feel a little more a home - in a church that is small, and relatively unknown. She probably would have spoken in a different manner to a visiting EO. Except for the fact that she would have been eager to be hospitable. Because that is our way.

The basis of the inference about her apologizing, the certitude about what she may have been told by RC's - with whatever intent - is absent from your post. While I assume that your comments are well-meaning, and with some detail may actually have some validity, you might like to know that this cradle BC finds them, as written, to be insufferably condescending.

Probably. I recently was talkng to a new immigre to the US from L'viv about her experiences. One think that amazed her was the mentality of the consumer society. Not so much in consumer goods, but the shopping approach to religion - in contrast to her familiar sense of being, in your very bones, of a religion. So, indeed, I think it might be a surprise that a visitng, churched person would be more than remotely likely to be interested in joining. But someone who was interested would ultimately make that known.

This step-child idea is totally alien to me. I have zero knowledge of this notion from my own experience. Zero. It is, in my experience, just a baseless insult lofted by those who wish to insult our church. I don't doubt your innocence about this. But I thought you should know.

Dear djs,

I thought the same when I read about the little old lady and was waiting for a Byzantine to make the reply. The old man was probably happy to see a new face in church, and upon learning she was RC figured she most likely wasn't there to stay and was a little disappointed.

Bill

I've never met a Catholic who attends the "Novus Ordo" who said they believed the Mass is a symbolic representation of the Last Supper.

As Novus Ordo Catholic, I believe in the sacrifice of the Mass, and that it is most definitely not just a symbolic representation.

I apologize if I came across as being condescending towards cradle Byzantines.

I suppose why I was 'sensitive' to the old woman's response was that it reminded me of the Catholics I knew growing up were 'defensive' about our faith in a overwhelmingly evangelical area of the country.

I remember my mother telling me not to list CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) on my activities list for my sorority rush application.

I remember how the priest would try to downplay the differences between us and *them.*

I had a hard time understanding that 'fear' because I come from a different generation.

Where I grew up, they used to build small churches that didn't stick out too much. I understand the fear but IMHO, it's now time to claim our place in America.

I'm belaboring the point because I've been accused of something (trashing the Roman Catholic Church) which I don't think is fair. I was accused of this when I criticized a book.

The response surprised me and I thought it was odd that no one is allowed to criticize the Roman Catholic Church or its liturgy.