www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Criticizing the Roman Catholic Church

Dear Carson my friend,

Somehow I thought it was probably you who had spoken to her.

Many years!
Michael

I disagree. I think the ECs should focus on drawing in latins. Not disaffected latins but typical latins.

Let's face it (in my opinion,of course), most RC parishes are a disaster. People are hungry for something. They want something more than "kumbaya" and the 'let's all hold hands' nonsense. People are looking for something that transcends normal life. The RC (in my opinion, of course) has given up on this mission.

I get the feeling that some Eastern Catholics are afraid to 'poach' the latins because that might scare the powers that be.

You don't know that. Being stupid doesn't mean someone isn't pious.

Honestly, the Divine Liturgy can be quite shocking to a trad latin.

Although my experience has been that trad latins are becoming very familiar with the Eastern Churches.

We don't poach Latins, we just appeal to their aesthetic sensibilities. Shhhh! Don't tell anyone. Rome doesn't know about it, it's a secret.

We don't need to poach the Latins (and we aren't supposed to).

When they (like me) encounter the liturgy properly done and a theology that makes sense, they want it for themselves.

Some come to visit and take a piece of our spirituality back with them, very good!

Some never come back to us.

Some make occasional pilgrimages to us and leave with a sense of renewal.

Some never go back!

All we have to do is make ourselves available to them, inform them and leave it to the Holy Spirit.

Whether they stay with us or not, the church will be blessed.

My point is, there are plenty of non-Christians in this society of ours that need a great deal of effort from us, we must not neglect this responsibility.

Dear Xenia, Esq.

I don't agree that we should go after Latins in their parishes!

If Latins wish to approach the Eastern Church, that is different.

I have many Latin friends who are quite happy with their Church and would take offense at what really is your generalized commentary about the state of the Latin Church.

And I think you are universalizing your experience as a Latin.

Latins who come to the EC Liturgies aren't all enamoured by it.

I've only met a few Latin Catholics who actually like it.

At a funeral the other day, one LC friend said, "Gosh, but you guys keep repeating the same things over and over again . . . and your services are so long . . ." etc.

In addition, there are certain laws in place in the Latin Church about trying to "convert" or "evangelize" Latins.

You know, "laws."

I think that approach would be offensive to our Latin Catholic brothers (and sisters).

Why should we consider them to be "unevangelized" or not living in a relationship to Christ and the Holy Trinity?

And I think I speak for all EC's here when I say that we have had ENOUGH of RC's who come over to the EC parishes because they are running away from something, rather than going toward the Christian East.

RC's who have had enough of their Church for whatever reason - please don't let that be the only reason for your wanting to find out more about the EC parishes and joining them.

Historically, traditional Roman Catholics have been real "pains in the butt" to us EC's with their monolithic views of the Church that tended to demean EC's - the woman you mention is reacting to that precise historic traditional RC perspective.

If anything, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo has had a beneficial impact on RC's of late.

We tend to like Novus Ordo Latins since they are very respectful about the Eastern Churches.

For one thing, they no longer call us "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite."

Your perspective is a bit mean-spirited, and while it may be good for the world of lawyers, when it comes to Latin/Eastern relationships, your perspective really stinks.

Have a nice day!

Alex

I remember my mom's comment after her first Liturgy "you always do things 3 times in your Church!!!" ) I think it was weariness on her part!

First, in my experience trad latins are more open to the Eastern Churches than Novus Ordo latins. And they do call you "Roman Catholics of the Eastern Rite." We had a whole discussion about this over on the Catholic Convert board a few weeks ago.

Second, I'm at a loss as why it is offensive to say the same things that Roman Catholics say about the Roman Catholic Church. I was born and raised in the latin Church and I have never heard an RC priest say that they liked the Novus Ordo. And I didn't grow up in trad circles. When you sit down and talk to a conservative RC priest what you will hear are complaints about the NO. Most of them are not 'closet' trads. They don't want the Tridentine Mass but they don't like the NO.

Also when conservative RCs talk amongst themselves it's common to suggest that some of our bishops aren't really Catholic and that many of our parishes are a disaster. In fact, when I moved I asked my former conservative pastor to recommend a parish for me. There's an underground network of conservative priests out there who do their own thing. When I moved to Chicago I was by numerous good RCs to go to St. John Cantius. I was warned to stay pretty clear of the typical parish here. That's the reality of living in the RC Church.

I used to know a FSSP priest who said something to me that I thought was very profound. He said that he gets tired of people griping about how American Catholics don't have "faith." (for the record, I never gripe about that, so he wasn't talking about me) He said that in his opinion American Catholics must have a lot more faith than given credit for because they show up week and after week to listen to terrible homilies and bad music. He used to be diocesan priest and he said that he was told that elderly people would turn off their hearing aids during the homilies because they're so bad. I think he was right on target.

Despite the way I may sound, I do not think that I'm running from abuses in the latin Church. I've always been attracted to the east and have studied it for years. I much prefer the Divine Liturgy to the Tridentine Mass. However, as the pope teaches us the Church needs both of its lungs to be fully Catholic. It's our Church too and we have every right to criticize when we see them faltering.

An Orthodox priest I know once told me that he whinces when he hears about abuses in the latin Church. He says that even though he's no in communion with them officially he knows they're a part of the Church and it hurts him to see the Eucharist treated in a disrespectful manner.

This whole discussion makes me wonder if ECs are the only traditional Catholics who actually like the Novus Ordo? Honestly I'm surprised to see people say they like the NO. I haven't heard that since I quit talking to liberal Catholics. (and no, I'm not saying that you're "liberal")

Just for the record(because of another thread I have on the forum), It was not me wearing a mantilla that Dan mentions..I've never been to Illinois, I swear
And while I am having a hard time adjusting to my new parish, I am working very hard to keep from mentioning anything to the people there...

The following is, I believe, courtesy of Jules Feiffer:

"Someone's faxing Lord, Kumbaya ..." [We try to keep current - even though few people under the age of 30 remember the fax machine.]

Incognitus

We talk about hurt and betrayal...my wife, who was raised in Eastern Europe where we have seen the Novus Ordo done properly and think it's nice, feels betrayed by the RCC in America. She feels that the RCC has "become Lutheran" to use her terminology. Of course it hasn't and Lutherans often have nice liturgy, too, but that is her way of expressing her disappointment when we go to masses where the priest walks around and talks to people during Mass as part of the ritual, when hymns like "Peace is Flowing Like A River" which do not mention Christ are sung, when priests say in a sermon that God doesn't care if you sin, as long as you are nice to others (I was there for all of this too and witnessed it). This isn't just one location; it's all up and down the East Coast and in Michigan where we have experienced this.

My wife feels that her Church was taken away from her. And so does Jennifer. So before we get all up in arms at Jennifer, let's giver HER the benefit of the doubt and assume that she too is hurt. Maybe some don't like how she expresses herself--and some have very politely expressed that. But others are rushing to judgment in the same way they accuse Jennifer.

What's my opinon on the matter? The RCC should immediately offer all priests the optin of saying the Tridentine Mass in either Latin or the vernacular, with some of the good improvements of the Novus Ordo like abolishing the silent canon, mandating a sermon, and pretty much abolishing Low Masses on Sundays. Let this go on next to the established Novus Ordo (although I think even in the Novus Ordo, versus populum should be abolished--again, just my opinion). I think if people have the choice, the Tridentine Mass with its minor modifications (some say the Missal of 1965 would be a good default) would beat out the Novus Ordo by natural process. At least then the RCC could avoid another committee decreeing liturgical changes. And that way people who like the Novus Ordo could still have it.

Again, my opinons that I offer not as facts

Anastasios

Dear Friends,

If some of us are saying categorically that the Novus Ordo is this or that, as some truly DO seem to be saying, then that is truly offensive and not acceptable.

That is NOT to impugn anyone's character, but only what is being said.

Many Latin Catholics I've known consider ECism and Orthodoxy to be lifeless fossils of a bygone era, locked in a ritualistic mind-set filled with clouds of incense and Divinized personages depicted on icons that are far removed from the realities of daily life on this planet . . . yes, I'm quoting someone I knew.

No one is dismissing Jennifer or Anastasios' wife here.

But to say that the Latin Catholic Church of the Novus Ordo is somehow wrong or "heretical" etc. is simply being unCatholic.

It is up to Orthodoxy whether it wishes to become a home for disaffected Tridentines in this way.

Or the EC Churches.

Nor do I believe that Jennifer's earlier question about papal infallibility was all that forthright.

As a traditional RC she darn well KNOWS what papal infallibility is all about.

She could have said what she truly does feel - "Why do I have to accept papal infallibility since the Novus Ordo clearly shows me that Rome is in the wrong?"

The fact that Christ promised to be with HIs Church always doesn't occur to some.

Orthodox too has its "Old Riters" who were willing to go into schism rather than change the form of the Sign of the Cross et al.

Sorry, Anastasios, but you are wrong here.

Jennifer is a serious and studious person with a deep personal faith.

But she is wrong to see in the Novus Ordo what she apparently does see - something of the heretical.

That is thinking that is already OUTSIDE the Catholic Church.

Alex

Hi,

When criticism is sincere, informed and constructive, then it is most welcome, no matter who you are.

Well, trashing is generally not informed and constructive, so we will not appreciate, not even if it comes from within the Roman Church.

Well, you are entitled not to like the current Roman rite, however, as a Catholic of any rite, you cannot question its validity, as it is the approved rite, prescribed by the Pope.

You might be right. The Roman Church has never claimed perfection. However, the remark in and of itself lacks any constructive element. What do you think we should do to put a remedy to this problem?

Well, you are working with the assumption that we have departed from our roots.

While I agree with you in that you should be allowed to say that, I suppose that you'd also agree that we should be allowed to demand you to present proof of your assumption.

Shalom,
MEmo.

Alex, you're putting words in my mouth. I never wrote that I thought that Novus Ordo was "heretical" or even less than Catholic.

I also object to your accusation that I was being dishonest about my confusion about the papacy. Just because I have run in trad circles does not make a me a trad. In fact, while I'm sympathic to trads and agree with them about the liturgy, I can't stand ultramontane triumphantism so ignore them when they start to talk about the pope.

It's not the Novus Ordo made me think Rome was wrong. In fact, I think that a reform of the Mass was needed. I think the liturgy should be in the vernacular. I think there should be more participation between the clergy and laypeople during the Mass.

I struggle with the teachings about the papacy because of my reading of history and the Fathers.

I also never wrote that the Novus Ordo isn't valid. I shouldn't even have to explain myself but I think it's valid. I was at the Novus two weeks ago.